Time called at iconic Black Horse pub

St Helens Star: Earlier this year villagers opposed to the plans organised a petition to keep the Black Horse open. Earlier this year villagers opposed to the plans organised a petition to keep the Black Horse open.

ONE of the oldest pubs in St Helens, believed to date back to the 18th Century, faces demolition if plans go ahead for 16 homes on its site.

The proposals to bulldoze The Black Horse on Moss Bank Road have been met with fierce opposition from neighbours who fear another focal point for the community will be lost forever.

Steppingstone Building Developments say the scheme will include two, three, four and five bedroom family homes.

They have also pledged to include 25 per cent affordable housing.

The origins of The Black Horse are believed to go back to the time Thomas Greenall bought the inn as part of his rapidly expanding brewery in St Helens.

It is listed in Greenall’s rent book in 1800, so dates back to the late 1700s. The pub is said to have staged cock-fights and was frequented by Lords Derby and Gerard.

In its planning statement, Steppingstone claim that the pub’s bowling-green is no longer in use, and there is no evidence that one should be provided locally.

The buildings will face a shared public courtyard, the centre of which will feature an existing oak tree.

A period of public consultation into the development started on Friday, Nov 9 and runs to Monday, Dec 3.

Comments (30)

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10:07am Thu 15 Nov 12

Bill Bradbury says...

My maths was never any good but 5% affordable housing of 16 is 4. Define affordable housing. Big deal!
Looking at the recent bedroom tax many have to pay perhaps they would be better building a number of bed-sits?
My maths was never any good but 5% affordable housing of 16 is 4. Define affordable housing. Big deal! Looking at the recent bedroom tax many have to pay perhaps they would be better building a number of bed-sits? Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 0

10:08am Thu 15 Nov 12

Bill Bradbury says...

Sorry missed the 2 infront of 5% Must get a new keyboard free from crumbs.
Sorry missed the 2 infront of 5% Must get a new keyboard free from crumbs. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 0

11:40am Thu 15 Nov 12

keepitreel says...

BILL it all depends on what they class as affordable,i bet a £10 to charity that non will be under the £165k bracket or if they are they will be 1 bed flats,what this town needs is properties in the £80 - £95k bracket that first time buyers can afford but builders will not sell for this price as the shareholders need their money,and im betting most people who move into these houses wil have come from out of town anyway.
BILL it all depends on what they class as affordable,i bet a £10 to charity that non will be under the £165k bracket or if they are they will be 1 bed flats,what this town needs is properties in the £80 - £95k bracket that first time buyers can afford but builders will not sell for this price as the shareholders need their money,and im betting most people who move into these houses wil have come from out of town anyway. keepitreel
  • Score: 0

1:01pm Thu 15 Nov 12

Bill Bradbury says...

Keepit real spot on. People need to get on the ladder epecially young first time buyers.
Keepit real spot on. People need to get on the ladder epecially young first time buyers. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 0

5:18pm Thu 15 Nov 12

anthonywilson says...

Sad to see the Black Horse pub is in this position but like so many pubs, far too many are struggling because they don't have free house status and are not tied into brewery contracts.

The points about affordable housing are spot on. Affordable for whom? What do you actually class as being affordable these days. The build quality of many new of these houses is neither very often up to scratch or are big enough to meet the needs of people due to a lack of internal living and storage space. People are being ripped off for what they are paying for and there is huge need for cheaper better constructed housing. It won't be long before new prefab style construction housing is back in vogue because its the only thing which will be affordable. It's no coincidence that house builder Persimon have recenty aquired a flat pack/timber frame factory for the future construction of new homes as reported in this weeks press. http://www.guardian.
co.uk/business/2012/
nov/12/prefabs-brita
in-timber-frame-pers
immon?INTCMP=SRCH
Sad to see the Black Horse pub is in this position but like so many pubs, far too many are struggling because they don't have free house status and are not tied into brewery contracts. The points about affordable housing are spot on. Affordable for whom? What do you actually class as being affordable these days. The build quality of many new of these houses is neither very often up to scratch or are big enough to meet the needs of people due to a lack of internal living and storage space. People are being ripped off for what they are paying for and there is huge need for cheaper better constructed housing. It won't be long before new prefab style construction housing is back in vogue because its the only thing which will be affordable. It's no coincidence that house builder Persimon have recenty aquired a flat pack/timber frame factory for the future construction of new homes as reported in this weeks press. http://www.guardian. co.uk/business/2012/ nov/12/prefabs-brita in-timber-frame-pers immon?INTCMP=SRCH anthonywilson
  • Score: 0

10:38pm Thu 15 Nov 12

rosered1 says...

So we have a character building dating back to the late 1700's in our town and we are going to demolish it for some newly built box-type homes? Only in St Helens would this not be seen as a feature property and used as a building of worth. Good old St Helens Council ~ they ruined the canal and destroyed all the locks ruining a real feature of the town and its history and any planning permission seems to get automatically granted on any Grade 2 listed building in the area so I suppose I shouldnt be surprised.
So we have a character building dating back to the late 1700's in our town and we are going to demolish it for some newly built box-type homes? Only in St Helens would this not be seen as a feature property and used as a building of worth. Good old St Helens Council ~ they ruined the canal and destroyed all the locks ruining a real feature of the town and its history and any planning permission seems to get automatically granted on any Grade 2 listed building in the area so I suppose I shouldnt be surprised. rosered1
  • Score: 0

10:55pm Thu 15 Nov 12

anthonywilson says...

rosered1 wrote:
So we have a character building dating back to the late 1700's in our town and we are going to demolish it for some newly built box-type homes? Only in St Helens would this not be seen as a feature property and used as a building of worth. Good old St Helens Council ~ they ruined the canal and destroyed all the locks ruining a real feature of the town and its history and any planning permission seems to get automatically granted on any Grade 2 listed building in the area so I suppose I shouldnt be surprised.
Planning permission to demolish should not be agreed exactly for those reasons. There's plenty of other stalled building sites in St Helens where homes could be built.
[quote][p][bold]rosered1[/bold] wrote: So we have a character building dating back to the late 1700's in our town and we are going to demolish it for some newly built box-type homes? Only in St Helens would this not be seen as a feature property and used as a building of worth. Good old St Helens Council ~ they ruined the canal and destroyed all the locks ruining a real feature of the town and its history and any planning permission seems to get automatically granted on any Grade 2 listed building in the area so I suppose I shouldnt be surprised.[/p][/quote]Planning permission to demolish should not be agreed exactly for those reasons. There's plenty of other stalled building sites in St Helens where homes could be built. anthonywilson
  • Score: 0

9:12am Fri 16 Nov 12

Bill Bradbury says...

Interesting point Anthony makes if many of us can remember the pre-fab homes of the 30's & 40's many remained in better condition than those built with traditional materials. I think I recall most on Prescot Road Central Av. end, and the Road into Liverpool.
Interesting point Anthony makes if many of us can remember the pre-fab homes of the 30's & 40's many remained in better condition than those built with traditional materials. I think I recall most on Prescot Road Central Av. end, and the Road into Liverpool. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 0

3:50pm Fri 16 Nov 12

Chris Lamb says...

This pub is hundreds of years old. I believe it was refused planning permission last year for an extension becuase it wasn't within keeping the appearance of the area. So how now can knocking it down and replacing it with 16 homes keep up with the appearance of the area. Its wrong. The pub along with the church and Neill Cottage were built with stone from Crank Caverns. They are part of the local history of Moss Bank. They should all be list but for whatever reason haven't been in the past. There should be at least a planning committee to look at this. It shouldn't be just waved through. I know the St Helens Core Strategy wants 570 home each year but that shouldn't be at the expense of our historical buildings.
This pub is hundreds of years old. I believe it was refused planning permission last year for an extension becuase it wasn't within keeping the appearance of the area. So how now can knocking it down and replacing it with 16 homes keep up with the appearance of the area. Its wrong. The pub along with the church and Neill Cottage were built with stone from Crank Caverns. They are part of the local history of Moss Bank. They should all be list but for whatever reason haven't been in the past. There should be at least a planning committee to look at this. It shouldn't be just waved through. I know the St Helens Core Strategy wants 570 home each year but that shouldn't be at the expense of our historical buildings. Chris Lamb
  • Score: 0

6:57pm Fri 16 Nov 12

rosered1 says...

Perhaps I am being a bit end-of-the-week muddled but if the period of public consultation into the development started on Friday, Nov 9 and runs to Monday, Dec 03rd then shouldn't it be available on the Council website to be viewed under the Planning Public Access page? Or I am looking in entirely the wrong place?
Perhaps I am being a bit end-of-the-week muddled but if the period of public consultation into the development started on Friday, Nov 9 and runs to Monday, Dec 03rd then shouldn't it be available on the Council website to be viewed under the Planning Public Access page? Or I am looking in entirely the wrong place? rosered1
  • Score: 0

7:00pm Fri 16 Nov 12

rosered1 says...

Forget that! I have now found it :)
Forget that! I have now found it :) rosered1
  • Score: 0

7:12pm Fri 16 Nov 12

rosered1 says...

anthonywilson wrote:
rosered1 wrote:
So we have a character building dating back to the late 1700's in our town and we are going to demolish it for some newly built box-type homes? Only in St Helens would this not be seen as a feature property and used as a building of worth. Good old St Helens Council ~ they ruined the canal and destroyed all the locks ruining a real feature of the town and its history and any planning permission seems to get automatically granted on any Grade 2 listed building in the area so I suppose I shouldnt be surprised.
Planning permission to demolish should not be agreed exactly for those reasons. There's plenty of other stalled building sites in St Helens where homes could be built.
Spot on anthonywilson. When will this Council ever learn?
I have sent my objection to the Council and hope others will too.
[quote][p][bold]anthonywilson[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]rosered1[/bold] wrote: So we have a character building dating back to the late 1700's in our town and we are going to demolish it for some newly built box-type homes? Only in St Helens would this not be seen as a feature property and used as a building of worth. Good old St Helens Council ~ they ruined the canal and destroyed all the locks ruining a real feature of the town and its history and any planning permission seems to get automatically granted on any Grade 2 listed building in the area so I suppose I shouldnt be surprised.[/p][/quote]Planning permission to demolish should not be agreed exactly for those reasons. There's plenty of other stalled building sites in St Helens where homes could be built.[/p][/quote]Spot on anthonywilson. When will this Council ever learn? I have sent my objection to the Council and hope others will too. rosered1
  • Score: 0

8:17pm Fri 16 Nov 12

keepitreel says...

anthony wilson,do you think it could be the area this pub is in? a better postcode than say PARR they can charge more for the properties than say building on a waste site in a less salubrious area,as for the council saying it wants 500+ houses a year if the builders don't want to build in rougher parts of town then who can make them?,there is a half finished site right next to the stinky brook in blackbrook,they struggled to sell the ones built and have now put on hold the rest of the houses,who in their right mind would wish to live next to an open sewer and a sewage works?
anthony wilson,do you think it could be the area this pub is in? a better postcode than say PARR they can charge more for the properties than say building on a waste site in a less salubrious area,as for the council saying it wants 500+ houses a year if the builders don't want to build in rougher parts of town then who can make them?,there is a half finished site right next to the stinky brook in blackbrook,they struggled to sell the ones built and have now put on hold the rest of the houses,who in their right mind would wish to live next to an open sewer and a sewage works? keepitreel
  • Score: 0

8:37pm Fri 16 Nov 12

anthonywilson says...

Land values from area to area are different and of course its highly likely that the builders could charge more for new houses in Moss Bank than Parr. The bigger reality is that house building is only slowly picking up and in many areas building work on various sites has stalled regardless of location and not just in St Helens. The houses on Saints former stadium site are a good example. If the homes were selling all the houses would be constructed by now and they aren't even half way finished on the Knowlsey Road site. Conversely houses in a less salubrious area as you put it might infact be easier to sell because they will probably be cheaper and mortgages slightly more affordable and accessible to the average wage earner than exec homes in other areas such as Moss Bank.
Land values from area to area are different and of course its highly likely that the builders could charge more for new houses in Moss Bank than Parr. The bigger reality is that house building is only slowly picking up and in many areas building work on various sites has stalled regardless of location and not just in St Helens. The houses on Saints former stadium site are a good example. If the homes were selling all the houses would be constructed by now and they aren't even half way finished on the Knowlsey Road site. Conversely houses in a less salubrious area as you put it might infact be easier to sell because they will probably be cheaper and mortgages slightly more affordable and accessible to the average wage earner than exec homes in other areas such as Moss Bank. anthonywilson
  • Score: 0

4:44pm Sun 18 Nov 12

les hatto says...

Regarding the comments made by Steppingstone let me clarify the Bowling clubs situation. I am the treasurer of the club and we were given two days notice in September to vacate the green and it would no longer be used for bowling.We did get one weeks reprieve to fullfill our fixtures I have written and soke to representatives of Steppingstone The owner being Stephen O,Connor the owner of Widnes rugby league club to see if they could change there minds about the green, I didn,t get a reply I also stated in one of my letters that a directive of sport england was that they are suppose to provide us with an alternative green within one and a half miles once again we received no reply. We asked for compensation for articles stolen while every were was locked up and they had people working on the pub and that was the only entrance to the bowling green and our articles were dismantled and taken during the day.
Once again I recieved no reply.
We now have to look elsewhere for a bowling green for the future when we had spent 31 years there.
Spent many thousands of pounds on the green and surrounding areas and many hours working on them
So for them to say there is no one playing here and no need for a bowling green is a totally false statement
Regarding the comments made by Steppingstone let me clarify the Bowling clubs situation. I am the treasurer of the club and we were given two days notice in September to vacate the green and it would no longer be used for bowling.We did get one weeks reprieve to fullfill our fixtures I have written and soke to representatives of Steppingstone The owner being Stephen O,Connor the owner of Widnes rugby league club to see if they could change there minds about the green, I didn,t get a reply I also stated in one of my letters that a directive of sport england was that they are suppose to provide us with an alternative green within one and a half miles once again we received no reply. We asked for compensation for articles stolen while every were was locked up and they had people working on the pub and that was the only entrance to the bowling green and our articles were dismantled and taken during the day. Once again I recieved no reply. We now have to look elsewhere for a bowling green for the future when we had spent 31 years there. Spent many thousands of pounds on the green and surrounding areas and many hours working on them So for them to say there is no one playing here and no need for a bowling green is a totally false statement les hatto
  • Score: 0

4:58pm Sun 18 Nov 12

les hatto says...

The Black Horse pub and bowling green have been an integral part of Moss Bank community for hundreds of years. The loss of both to build houses on by a company from the Cheshire for profit is a disgrace. The community is now in turmoil, a bowling club with no green a mission with no parking facility and many locals struggling to find a pub with a good friendly atmosphere as was the black horse
The Black Horse pub and bowling green have been an integral part of Moss Bank community for hundreds of years. The loss of both to build houses on by a company from the Cheshire for profit is a disgrace. The community is now in turmoil, a bowling club with no green a mission with no parking facility and many locals struggling to find a pub with a good friendly atmosphere as was the black horse les hatto
  • Score: 0

4:58pm Sun 18 Nov 12

les hatto says...

The Black Horse pub and bowling green have been an integral part of Moss Bank community for hundreds of years. The loss of both to build houses on by a company from the Cheshire for profit is a disgrace. The community is now in turmoil, a bowling club with no green a mission with no parking facility and many locals struggling to find a pub with a good friendly atmosphere as was the black horse
The Black Horse pub and bowling green have been an integral part of Moss Bank community for hundreds of years. The loss of both to build houses on by a company from the Cheshire for profit is a disgrace. The community is now in turmoil, a bowling club with no green a mission with no parking facility and many locals struggling to find a pub with a good friendly atmosphere as was the black horse les hatto
  • Score: 0

4:58pm Sun 18 Nov 12

les hatto says...

The Black Horse pub and bowling green have been an integral part of Moss Bank community for hundreds of years. The loss of both to build houses on by a company from the Cheshire for profit is a disgrace. The community is now in turmoil, a bowling club with no green a mission with no parking facility and many locals struggling to find a pub with a good friendly atmosphere as was the black horse
The Black Horse pub and bowling green have been an integral part of Moss Bank community for hundreds of years. The loss of both to build houses on by a company from the Cheshire for profit is a disgrace. The community is now in turmoil, a bowling club with no green a mission with no parking facility and many locals struggling to find a pub with a good friendly atmosphere as was the black horse les hatto
  • Score: 0

9:20pm Sun 18 Nov 12

Paul Lynch says...

Hi Les,

I don't suppose you (and indeed anyone else involved with, or with an opinion on the development) would be able to email me with your concerns? Trying to get the fullest picture possible.
cllrplynch@sthelens.
gov.uk

Thanks

Paul
Hi Les, I don't suppose you (and indeed anyone else involved with, or with an opinion on the development) would be able to email me with your concerns? Trying to get the fullest picture possible. cllrplynch@sthelens. gov.uk Thanks Paul Paul Lynch
  • Score: 0

1:24pm Mon 19 Nov 12

Chris Lamb says...

I'd be happy too as well. I've just spoken with the planning officer. If six objections are received it will automatically trigger a planning committee. If twenty five objections are received (in writing or by email) we will get ten minutes to put our objections across. The bowling club is a going concern and they were told not to use it again following their last match. Its not like they put it..
I'd be happy too as well. I've just spoken with the planning officer. If six objections are received it will automatically trigger a planning committee. If twenty five objections are received (in writing or by email) we will get ten minutes to put our objections across. The bowling club is a going concern and they were told not to use it again following their last match. Its not like they put it.. Chris Lamb
  • Score: 0

8:27pm Mon 19 Nov 12

frankly says...

knock the town hall down instead to build houses, because not much in the interests of the town happens in there
knock the town hall down instead to build houses, because not much in the interests of the town happens in there frankly
  • Score: 0

8:35pm Mon 19 Nov 12

SteSmith72 says...

Where can I send an email objecting to this?

Cheers
Where can I send an email objecting to this? Cheers SteSmith72
  • Score: 0

10:57pm Mon 19 Nov 12

rosered1 says...

SteSmith72 wrote:
Where can I send an email objecting to this?

Cheers
Hi Ste, I have e-mailed my objections to
Planning@sthelens.go
v.uk quoting the planning number P/2012/0814

Good luck!
[quote][p][bold]SteSmith72[/bold] wrote: Where can I send an email objecting to this? Cheers[/p][/quote]Hi Ste, I have e-mailed my objections to Planning@sthelens.go v.uk quoting the planning number P/2012/0814 Good luck! rosered1
  • Score: 0

12:14am Tue 20 Nov 12

supergut says...

as a born and bred mossbanker i am lost for words how this council can even consider pulling down the black horse pub whats next build on the villiage green or pull down the mission .? have they no pride in the finer parts of the town. it is a joke ,this firm should not be allowed to rape and pilliage just for profit .for over 60 years i have watched the bowling,i just hope our planning sees the right way forward ,and not grant planning .?
as a born and bred mossbanker i am lost for words how this council can even consider pulling down the black horse pub whats next build on the villiage green or pull down the mission .? have they no pride in the finer parts of the town. it is a joke ,this firm should not be allowed to rape and pilliage just for profit .for over 60 years i have watched the bowling,i just hope our planning sees the right way forward ,and not grant planning .? supergut
  • Score: 0

8:32am Tue 20 Nov 12

Paul Lynch says...

In addition to the email address above, I'm holding my advice surgery tonight, 18:30-19:30 at Park Farm, and the same time next tuesday at Chain Lane Community centre, if anyone would like to discuss the proposed Black Horse development.
In addition to the email address above, I'm holding my advice surgery tonight, 18:30-19:30 at Park Farm, and the same time next tuesday at Chain Lane Community centre, if anyone would like to discuss the proposed Black Horse development. Paul Lynch
  • Score: 0

1:52pm Tue 20 Nov 12

Chris Lamb says...

Paul

Didn't realise it was tonight. I'll come down. Is Park Farm the one that used to be the Black House Community Centre near the park.
Paul Didn't realise it was tonight. I'll come down. Is Park Farm the one that used to be the Black House Community Centre near the park. Chris Lamb
  • Score: 0

4:50pm Tue 20 Nov 12

Bane666 says...

What really amuses me about this is that the pub wouldnt be in this situation if the locals did actually support it. I dont know how you can complain about it been knocked down when 95% of locals never even visited it. If the pub was packed 7 nights a week and it closed and was going to be knocked down then fair enough, but it was like a grave yard most of the time. Times have changed, 10 years ago it was a very busy place most nights but since Eric left it went down hill. Its sad but its a reality. It alright trying to save the building but then what? Turn it into apartments????
What really amuses me about this is that the pub wouldnt be in this situation if the locals did actually support it. I dont know how you can complain about it been knocked down when 95% of locals never even visited it. If the pub was packed 7 nights a week and it closed and was going to be knocked down then fair enough, but it was like a grave yard most of the time. Times have changed, 10 years ago it was a very busy place most nights but since Eric left it went down hill. Its sad but its a reality. It alright trying to save the building but then what? Turn it into apartments???? Bane666
  • Score: 0

1:41pm Wed 21 Nov 12

Chris Lamb says...

In my humble opinion, the prices were put up to stop people going in.

Those who owned it didn't want to improve it. Other pubs doing well developed and diversified. Thats how pubs make money these days.

These so called pub companies create artificial situations to show that pubs aren't doing well so it looks better when asking to knock it down and build a load of houses on it. All across St Helens its happening.

It was the lack of investment to make it work not lack of customers. Customers only stopped going in because management stopped entertainment and stopped offers to entice people to go in.

They didn't want it to work because they just wanted create the best situation for a developer to pay them a lot more money than they would otherwise get.

The Turks Head in town is a prime example that it can work. The owners paid very little for it as it was on its knees. Within two years they turned it around and it became one of the most succesful pubs in the UK, winning all kinds of awards. It just needs hard work and determination.

It can work and it should be saved.
In my humble opinion, the prices were put up to stop people going in. Those who owned it didn't want to improve it. Other pubs doing well developed and diversified. Thats how pubs make money these days. These so called pub companies create artificial situations to show that pubs aren't doing well so it looks better when asking to knock it down and build a load of houses on it. All across St Helens its happening. It was the lack of investment to make it work not lack of customers. Customers only stopped going in because management stopped entertainment and stopped offers to entice people to go in. They didn't want it to work because they just wanted create the best situation for a developer to pay them a lot more money than they would otherwise get. The Turks Head in town is a prime example that it can work. The owners paid very little for it as it was on its knees. Within two years they turned it around and it became one of the most succesful pubs in the UK, winning all kinds of awards. It just needs hard work and determination. It can work and it should be saved. Chris Lamb
  • Score: 0

2:21am Fri 23 Nov 12

catojasco says...

Having lived in NZ for the last thirty years I have watched th e demise of the historic places that I remember as a child and youth in St Helens.Sadly, it is not a localised trait.
Greed has surpassed the historical values of the majority. I wish you all every success in your attempts to control the beaurocatic bodies that are the cause of most problems in today's world. If anyone would care to keep me updated in this sad episode my email is"catojasco@paradis
e.net.nz" Barry Holland
Having lived in NZ for the last thirty years I have watched th e demise of the historic places that I remember as a child and youth in St Helens.Sadly, it is not a localised trait. Greed has surpassed the historical values of the majority. I wish you all every success in your attempts to control the beaurocatic bodies that are the cause of most problems in today's world. If anyone would care to keep me updated in this sad episode my email is"catojasco@paradis e.net.nz" Barry Holland catojasco
  • Score: 0

2:26am Fri 23 Nov 12

catojasco says...

Sorry, Missed the "r" out of beaurocratic!
Sorry, Missed the "r" out of beaurocratic! catojasco
  • Score: 0

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