Who are you trying to kid?

9:26am Thursday 13th September 2012 in News By Reader letter

SERIOUSLY, who do these Labour politicians think they are trying to kid? To try to put the blame on the current Coalition Government for the precarious financial situation of both St Helens and Whiston Hospitals is outrageous.

It was their precious Labour Government that introduced the PFI contracts. It was their precious Labour Government that has left our hospitals in debt and at risk of closure. Labour were warned that these PFI contracts would put our hospitals at risk, but they ignored that advice.

For council leader Marie Rimmer and her MP chums to now turn round and try to blame everybody else but themselves is an utter disgrace! And they should not be allowed to get away with it.

William Stephenson Eccleston, St Helens

Comments(25)

mikeperry109 says...
12:32pm Thu 13 Sep 12

But they will get away with it, William, as they have done since as long as I remember. The St. Helens electorate will vote them back in no matter how incompetent they are - just look at the last local election results in May and the general election of 2010. As I said in my letter last week, why was there no opposition from our MPs and council leader when the New Labour government were racking up PFI debt? Frankly, they did not care as long as the two hospitals were built. Now they bleat when the chickens have come home to roost - well and truly stuffed!

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keepitreel says...
6:29pm Fri 14 Sep 12

the problem is mike our local press never has the guts to stand up to them and write a editorial highlighting the short comings of our inept council,its seems those that pay the piper!

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manderley says...
7:49pm Fri 14 Sep 12

Well William Stephenson of Eccleston. In 1992 the PFI was introduced by the Conservative government under the leadership of John Major. The Tories want to privatise everything and it was a step in that direction, labour had no choice but to carry it on. If we paid higher taxes like they do in scandanavian countries such as Sweden, this would help to pay for public services. This present government just want to rip everything apart and then Labour spend years trying to put things right. We have two new hospitals that we can be proud of, thanks to LABOUR!

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mikeperry109 says...
7:59pm Fri 14 Sep 12

manderley wrote:
Well William Stephenson of Eccleston. In 1992 the PFI was introduced by the Conservative government under the leadership of John Major. The Tories want to privatise everything and it was a step in that direction, labour had no choice but to carry it on. If we paid higher taxes like they do in scandanavian countries such as Sweden, this would help to pay for public services. This present government just want to rip everything apart and then Labour spend years trying to put things right. We have two new hospitals that we can be proud of, thanks to LABOUR!
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”- Joseph Goebbels.
It seems that you have fallen for the New Labour lie that Watts is spouting - that New Labour had no choice over PFI! Complete rubbish - we could have built both hospitals for the price of one using normal borrowing. We are pouring taxpayer's money into private pockets and we cannot now fund our hospitals properly. You need to take a reality check, my friend! The lie has been found out, just like the Hillsborough lies.

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alltaxnoletoffs says...
12:43am Sat 15 Sep 12

When I was still working in the 1990's my county council rejected PFI as "far too expensive in the long run for new public buildings". At the same time the local magistrates' court rejected PFI for proposed building extensions and/or refurbishment for the same reason. A decade after, Gordon Brown, famous as a financial wizard (God help us), decided to grab some glory by a fast programme of rebuilding NHS hospitals, using PFI because the money cupboard was bare. Local politicians were sucked in and basked in that glory and now deny there was anything wrong with PFI, pointing to the new hospitals we may never have had and blaming the present government for not finding the money to fund the PFI moneylender's huge extortion racket they locked us into. I wonder if they, and our local health authorities, advised by their very highly paid, still there, smiling chief executives even understood what they were signing up to. If they did but went ahead they should hang their heads and shut up. It ain't a good bandwaggon to be on!

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mikeperry109 says...
1:54am Sat 15 Sep 12

alltaxnoletoffs wrote:
When I was still working in the 1990's my county council rejected PFI as "far too expensive in the long run for new public buildings". At the same time the local magistrates' court rejected PFI for proposed building extensions and/or refurbishment for the same reason. A decade after, Gordon Brown, famous as a financial wizard (God help us), decided to grab some glory by a fast programme of rebuilding NHS hospitals, using PFI because the money cupboard was bare. Local politicians were sucked in and basked in that glory and now deny there was anything wrong with PFI, pointing to the new hospitals we may never have had and blaming the present government for not finding the money to fund the PFI moneylender's huge extortion racket they locked us into. I wonder if they, and our local health authorities, advised by their very highly paid, still there, smiling chief executives even understood what they were signing up to. If they did but went ahead they should hang their heads and shut up. It ain't a good bandwaggon to be on!
Read this Manderley, and then get your head from up New Labour's backside!
Excellent response, alltaxnoletoffs.

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manderley says...
11:38am Sat 15 Sep 12

It comes to something when you start quoting Goebbels, it shows where your political allegiances lie. After the next ten years. the payments for PFI start to decrease. Labour have always been the better option for looking after the nhs, The Tories don't believe in the nhs and would like to see it dismantled, if they have their way you won't be able to afford long term sickness or major operations. Tories introduced PFI, that's a fact not a lie and they are still using it on building projects that they have sanctioned.

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moonman77 says...
12:39pm Sat 15 Sep 12

keepitreel wrote:
the problem is mike our local press never has the guts to stand up to them and write a editorial highlighting the short comings of our inept council,its seems those that pay the piper!
Our local press do a good job. Their job is to REPORT not make JUDGEMENTS. Are you trying to say that our local newspapers are in the pockets of the council?.

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mikeperry109 says...
2:28pm Sat 15 Sep 12

manderley wrote:
It comes to something when you start quoting Goebbels, it shows where your political allegiances lie. After the next ten years. the payments for PFI start to decrease. Labour have always been the better option for looking after the nhs, The Tories don't believe in the nhs and would like to see it dismantled, if they have their way you won't be able to afford long term sickness or major operations. Tories introduced PFI, that's a fact not a lie and they are still using it on building projects that they have sanctioned.
You must be the thickest person on the planet - the Nazi regime knew how to control information and Goebbels, as their propoganda minister was a master at this. If you cannot see why the quote was used it probably explains why you are backing PFI.

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manderley says...
3:49pm Sat 15 Sep 12

Not saying I'm backing PFI, just pointing out a fact. So if you're a bit slow, look at what I'm saying not what you want to believe I'm saying. So stop imitating Geobbels by trying to control what I'm saying, and if you want to quote anyone else from the Nazi party, write on!

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keepitreel says...
4:26pm Sat 15 Sep 12

moonman77 yes the local papers report,but only what they are given to report by the political press officers,WHEN have you ever read a story that gave they view of both sides,WHEN has questions been asked about desicions made at the council that conflict with the good of the town,we never got an editorial when the reginal major referendum got scrapped at the say of one person as i said the piper calls the tune and at this time it is labour.

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mikeperry109 says...
5:36pm Sat 15 Sep 12

manderley wrote:
Not saying I'm backing PFI, just pointing out a fact. So if you're a bit slow, look at what I'm saying not what you want to believe I'm saying. So stop imitating Geobbels by trying to control what I'm saying, and if you want to quote anyone else from the Nazi party, write on!
You can say whatever you like - but it seems that you are so thick that you think that to quote someone means that you support them. Amazing stupidity!
If you are still convinced that PFI was the only option - i.e. if you have fallen for the New Labour lie - try reading the following article:
http://www.guardian.
co.uk/politics/2012/
jul/05/pfi-cost-300b
n
Then come back and argue your point.

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mikeperry109 says...
5:47pm Sat 15 Sep 12

And if you are still plugging the argument that PFI payments will start to decrease after 10 years Manderley, have a look at
http://www.guardian.
co.uk/news/datablog/
2012/jul/05/pfi-cont
racts-list#data. At one point the article says, " In fact NHS PFI repayments don't peak until 2029-30, when they hit £2.71bn a year". You claim that they start to decrease in ten years - you have the right to say what you like, but when you talk garbage, don't expect others to be silent.

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manderley says...
5:50pm Sat 15 Sep 12

Yawn!!! Oh dear Mike Perry, had'nt you better put your dummy back in? The Tories always tell the truth don't they? ha ha ha!
You're such an arrogant little man, go back to your pram.
You can't make me believe what you want me to so you are verbally attacking me
GROW UP I can tell your blood pressure's starting to rise

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mikeperry109 says...
5:53pm Sat 15 Sep 12

manderley wrote:
Yawn!!! Oh dear Mike Perry, had'nt you better put your dummy back in? The Tories always tell the truth don't they? ha ha ha!
You're such an arrogant little man, go back to your pram.
You can't make me believe what you want me to so you are verbally attacking me
GROW UP I can tell your blood pressure's starting to rise
The response of a moron, with very little of any consequence to say.

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alltaxnoletoffs says...
11:37pm Sat 15 Sep 12

I am disappointed to see that what I assumed was a serious exchange of views has rapidly degenerated into a political & personal points scoring arena so soon after I contributed what I thought was a reasonable view based on personal experience. Can we please discuss the plus & minus points of PFI? I would be more than satisfied if the people (and their paid professional advisers) who made the decisions to totally demolish & rebuild our local hospitals would outline the advantages of PFI which I obviously missed but seemingly to them clearly outweighed the signposted disadvantages everybody else had flagged up in the previous decade. I emphasise I have no political bias but I do want value for money in the public services we are compelled to pay for, Also, I believe that people who make bad decisions about spending public money should be acountable and not anonymous when their incompetence comes to light. Can we uncover who had the starring roles in our local PFI diasters?

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alltaxnoletoffs says...
11:42pm Sat 15 Sep 12

Sorry for typing errors - most serious is last word should read "disasters". Apologies

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rosered1 says...
12:17am Sun 16 Sep 12

Cant we just stop the childish name calling? Manderley just admit that you have not exactly covered yourself in glory on this one and alltaxnoletoffs has well and truly painted you into a corner.

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mikeperry109 says...
1:24am Sun 16 Sep 12

alltaxnoletoffs wrote:
I am disappointed to see that what I assumed was a serious exchange of views has rapidly degenerated into a political & personal points scoring arena so soon after I contributed what I thought was a reasonable view based on personal experience. Can we please discuss the plus & minus points of PFI? I would be more than satisfied if the people (and their paid professional advisers) who made the decisions to totally demolish & rebuild our local hospitals would outline the advantages of PFI which I obviously missed but seemingly to them clearly outweighed the signposted disadvantages everybody else had flagged up in the previous decade. I emphasise I have no political bias but I do want value for money in the public services we are compelled to pay for, Also, I believe that people who make bad decisions about spending public money should be acountable and not anonymous when their incompetence comes to light. Can we uncover who had the starring roles in our local PFI diasters?
You are quite right alltaxnoletoffs - it was a good debate until Manderley appeared with the blinkers on spouting the New Labour lie.
Have a look at the two guardian websites that I mentioned earlier in response to Manderley. They are both up to date 2102 articles and they truly expose the folly of PFI. I suspect corruption in the highest places!

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Sankey says...
8:25pm Sun 16 Sep 12

Given what went on behind closed doors at Hillsborough and remain hidden through and enquiry and another one in 1997 who's to say what happened with PFI? Governments are notoriously lax with negotiations look at the nimrod and the aircraft carriers. A lot of private individuals have become very rich on PFI clearly I have no evidence but given events of past week it does make you wonder is there a whole bunch of things out there we would be shocked if we found out.

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chasmcn says...
8:45am Mon 17 Sep 12

Health companies are to get £20 billion of NHS money so it has been announced today this is a another form of PFI ,Health companies will cherry pick the cheap profitable treatments of the NHS while the NHS has to deal with the unprofitable sector that make no money .Funny isn't £20 billion what the coalition says has to be saved from the NHS so the plan is we give £20 bill to private companies to make a profit which by the way made donations to both parties that at present are running our country .YOU can bet as with rail privatisation ,bus deregulation,energy providers we the public will get a s##t deal.
So as the ambulance arrives to take you to hospital "can we see your insurance card sir" its coming down the road non of this was in any political party's manifesto it appeared in the coalition agreement as the new govt was formed the LIB-DEMS should hang their heads in shame .We have been mislaid by govt minsters repeated denial of privatisation when all along its been the plan to replace a public service with a private one .New Labour" l wont call the last govt a Labour govt " they put down the rules for this while in power but the Coalition as gone even further with the Health and Social Care Act which will bring in privatistion faster .So my plea to Millband is come out and say you will reverse all this once you come to power and make the Labour Party a party to be proud of once agin .

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Sankey says...
12:02pm Mon 17 Sep 12

As long as the principle of “free at point of delivery” is preserved I think privatisation of the NHS would be a good thing and it is inevitable as is the teaching profession, civil service and local government. Whatever your political position you cannot deny one basic fact the NHS has a finite amount of money and what matters is as much as that money as possible goes into patient care. Right now a large chunk of the funding of the NHS goes into the ludicrous service contracts under PFI and in waste and inefficiency. When I am in hospital I care not how and where the person treating me is employed but that I get the best care possible for my money. I have paid for it after all in years on NI contributions and tax nothing is free in this world. I know number of people who work in the NHS they are dedicated people but they all say the same thing they are overworked, morale is terrible and the organisation and management of the NHS is a total shambles. If the NHS model is so wonderful why has no other country in the world copied it? The NHS is well down the league in terms of healthcare in relation to other countries with most of the European countries at the top of the table and they employ basically a private sector delivery system. As we saw with Hillsborough the public sector is corrupt and unaccountable in the main. We are told by the public sector unions G4S was an example of how the private sector is not better than the public sector. Well G4S was immediately accountable for mistakes made and were the Olympics run again tomorrow it would learn and fast. Yet the public sector rolls on year after year being entirely unaccountable with powerful unions resisting any change and terms and conditions light years ahead of the market place. The public sector is a private self serving closed shop run entirely for the benefit of those in it. You may disagree with my views but one thing that cannot be denied is we no longer have the money to burn on waste and self interest groups in our society we simply have to deliver the best we can for our money.

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keepitreel says...
10:00pm Mon 17 Sep 12

how about getting some of the £200 million back of goverments whos people have used our nhs and never paid for the privalage,there are planes coming to this country with people with the sole aim to be treated for free,i think our region is owed £32 million,either make them pay when the turn up at a hospital or send them on there way.

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Sankey says...
10:17am Tue 18 Sep 12

keepitreel wrote:
how about getting some of the £200 million back of goverments whos people have used our nhs and never paid for the privalage,there are planes coming to this country with people with the sole aim to be treated for free,i think our region is owed £32 million,either make them pay when the turn up at a hospital or send them on there way.
Thants a very good point health tourisrm is costing the NHS millions and care is being denied people who have paid into the system all their lives to pay for frankly what amounts to fraud and theft by chancers flying over to exploit the NHS. Our human rights act ensures they win every time.

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MakeStHelensGoodAgain says...
1:04pm Thu 20 Sep 12

Well Said! I'm surprised that the St Helens star has even let you post that comment they're so left wing!

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