Hospitals are in crisis (From St Helens Star)

As usual, total nonsense from Watts.
Back in April 2011 Watts claimed that “we didn’t build this hospital to end up with someone else making a profit from it”. What does he think that PFI is? Profits are being made by private companies, some offshore-based and thus avoiding a large amount of tax.
Can I remind Watts of the following article that appeared in the Guardian in 2010 "The attraction for Gordon Brown and the Labour government since 1997 has been that PFI investment has not generally appeared in the total of public sector debt. Brown's upper target for public sector debt to national income was 40%, ridiculously low by international standards. PFI enabled the government to hide much of the repayment liabilities and, until the crisis, get under the 40% target. We have already seen that the future annual payments due on PFI debt amount to more than £200bn. At a conservative estimate, at least half of this is an excess cost attributable to private finance”.
In other words, Mr. Watts, we are paying back twice as much as if we had borrowed the money ourselves. If we had done so then we could have built an extra school or hospital for each new build. Buy one get one free! What is indefensible is that this debt has been hidden, and even worse is the fact that New Labour opposed PFI leading up to the 1997 election.
Are you going to resign?

A good try Dave but some of the points you make are stretching the truth a little and are somewhat disingenuous in failing to pain the full picture.

To say that there was no choice with regards to Labour continuing the use of PFI to build new schools and hospitals etc simply isn't true. There was a time when things got built without PFI and its was a Governmental choice of the day to continue this. Both Harriet Harman and Alastair Darling in particular attacked the use of PFI schemes when in opposition in the 1990's during the Major Government.

You mention the world wide financial crisis which although has affected millions around the globe and is/was out of the hands of many countries governments it has nothing to do with the terms and conditions by which some of these crazy and very costly contracts were signed offering extremely poor value for money.

Nobody or not many disagrees with you about the need for new hospitals and each of the three local hospitals are indeed great improvements on the previous three local hospitals. However, did we need three hospitals when one could have sufficed to encompass all local health care needs on one site?

A further couple of points which I would like to put to you is that each of the hospitals are ALREADY part privatised in that it is the PFI contractors, the "New Hospitals Group/Vinci FM" who built and own the hospital buildings at Whiston and St Helens and LEASE the buildings back to the NHS. The NHS doesn't own the new hospital buildings.

You refer to 40 years of underinvestment in things like the railways but Governments of both political colours (red and blue) from the period of 1957 until 1997 when Labour were returned to office could have both spent more on infrastructure projects. (Funny that there never seems to be a shortage of money during the time of a war though.) The following article by George Monbiot back in 2007 laid waste the whole concept and stupidity of PFI's http://www.guardian.
co.uk/commentisfree/
2007/sep/04/comment.
politics

Don't think for one minute either that I'm a fan of this Coalition Government either because I'm most definitely not, but please don't keep treating the St Helens public as fools over PFI contracts either. A bit more humility over admitting mistakes would do a lot of good to restore the credibility of politics in the country (now at an all time low) rather than not painting the full truth or blaming someone else.

anthonywilson wrote:
A good try Dave but some of the points you make are stretching the truth a little and are somewhat disingenuous in failing to pain the full picture.

To say that there was no choice with regards to Labour continuing the use of PFI to build new schools and hospitals etc simply isn't true. There was a time when things got built without PFI and its was a Governmental choice of the day to continue this. Both Harriet Harman and Alastair Darling in particular attacked the use of PFI schemes when in opposition in the 1990's during the Major Government.

You mention the world wide financial crisis which although has affected millions around the globe and is/was out of the hands of many countries governments it has nothing to do with the terms and conditions by which some of these crazy and very costly contracts were signed offering extremely poor value for money.

Nobody or not many disagrees with you about the need for new hospitals and each of the three local hospitals are indeed great improvements on the previous three local hospitals. However, did we need three hospitals when one could have sufficed to encompass all local health care needs on one site?

A further couple of points which I would like to put to you is that each of the hospitals are ALREADY part privatised in that it is the PFI contractors, the "New Hospitals Group/Vinci FM" who built and own the hospital buildings at Whiston and St Helens and LEASE the buildings back to the NHS. The NHS doesn't own the new hospital buildings.

You refer to 40 years of underinvestment in things like the railways but Governments of both political colours (red and blue) from the period of 1957 until 1997 when Labour were returned to office could have both spent more on infrastructure projects. (Funny that there never seems to be a shortage of money during the time of a war though.) The following article by George Monbiot back in 2007 laid waste the whole concept and stupidity of PFI's http://www.guardian.

co.uk/commentisfree/

2007/sep/04/comment.

politics

Don't think for one minute either that I'm a fan of this Coalition Government either because I'm most definitely not, but please don't keep treating the St Helens public as fools over PFI contracts either. A bit more humility over admitting mistakes would do a lot of good to restore the credibility of politics in the country (now at an all time low) rather than not painting the full truth or blaming someone else.

Great response, Anthony. If Watts and Woodward had any honour they would resign, but as you say, they will not even acknowledge their mistakes.

David, New Labour, (or was it Old Tory?) have been caught with the ball, it having been passed by Kenneth Clarke's Tory friends a jolly wheeze by therm to get public spending off the books.

Unfortunately these spiv money lenders, as all dodgy ones are, want their money back with interest having ripped off the country with over expensive buildings which in the past Local Authorities built with money they could afford by getting Capital Grants. That was the "solution" Dave to schools with holes in the roof spending money we could afford to repay. In effect Labour borrowed off people who would want repaying with interest having pocketed huge profits for themselves in offshore accounts. It is called budgetting. My house needs a lot doing to it and I would love someone to give me a load of cash to replace everything (a new build) but as we all do we prioritise and deal with the essentials first. PFI gave the politicians the idea Christmas has come all at once and just spent spent spent-someone else's money of course!

To those with short memories who wish to put the whole of the blame on Labour just remember that Local Authorities had 20 years of CUTS to their budgets and raising Capital for projects was virtually impossible, hence why schools and hospitals got into the state they were. People have very short memories. Therefore the seeds of this mess lies in quite some way by the Tory Governments of Thatcher and Major, who you recall put us in a nearly economic meltdown.

You know I opposed such borrowing over Education with "son of PFI" "Building Schools for the future" at Governor Forum and Schools forum with my comments of "no such thing as a free lunch" I was made to look like some pariah or Jeremiah and vitually told to shut up..

And now you want the Government to provide "fair funding base" money to soften the blow to the Hospitals who are in a situation of no fault of their own suffering Privatisation by both the back and front door. The ones who will pay the cost will be the staff and a reduction in services as Private will "cherry pick" the most profitable.

And who provides this Government money? Why the tax payer of course who it appears to be ripped off twice by the speculators, paying for this PFI mistake of both major parties.Who provided the PFI money on which I often commented it must be from the magic porridge pot, if you can recall the fairy story.

As with Iraq PFI was not one of our best moments, but that's what you get when you try to ape the Tories.
Ed, like he did with Immigration, should hold up his hands and apologise for adopting Tory policy.

However all this is water under the bridge and how we support our hospitals against Tory Privatisation perhaps lies with a change of Government before they do any more damage, but for once Dave I am not on the side of the angels!!

As my old choirmaster at St.Helens Parish church, Stanley Shirtcliff would say when we sang something wrong "I think we had better leave by the back door!"

Bill Bradbury wrote:
David, New Labour, (or was it Old Tory?) have been caught with the ball, it having been passed by Kenneth Clarke's Tory friends a jolly wheeze by therm to get public spending off the books.

Unfortunately these spiv money lenders, as all dodgy ones are, want their money back with interest having ripped off the country with over expensive buildings which in the past Local Authorities built with money they could afford by getting Capital Grants. That was the "solution" Dave to schools with holes in the roof spending money we could afford to repay. In effect Labour borrowed off people who would want repaying with interest having pocketed huge profits for themselves in offshore accounts. It is called budgetting. My house needs a lot doing to it and I would love someone to give me a load of cash to replace everything (a new build) but as we all do we prioritise and deal with the essentials first. PFI gave the politicians the idea Christmas has come all at once and just spent spent spent-someone else's money of course!

To those with short memories who wish to put the whole of the blame on Labour just remember that Local Authorities had 20 years of CUTS to their budgets and raising Capital for projects was virtually impossible, hence why schools and hospitals got into the state they were. People have very short memories. Therefore the seeds of this mess lies in quite some way by the Tory Governments of Thatcher and Major, who you recall put us in a nearly economic meltdown.

You know I opposed such borrowing over Education with "son of PFI" "Building Schools for the future" at Governor Forum and Schools forum with my comments of "no such thing as a free lunch" I was made to look like some pariah or Jeremiah and vitually told to shut up..

And now you want the Government to provide "fair funding base" money to soften the blow to the Hospitals who are in a situation of no fault of their own suffering Privatisation by both the back and front door. The ones who will pay the cost will be the staff and a reduction in services as Private will "cherry pick" the most profitable.

And who provides this Government money? Why the tax payer of course who it appears to be ripped off twice by the speculators, paying for this PFI mistake of both major parties.Who provided the PFI money on which I often commented it must be from the magic porridge pot, if you can recall the fairy story.

As with Iraq PFI was not one of our best moments, but that's what you get when you try to ape the Tories.
Ed, like he did with Immigration, should hold up his hands and apologise for adopting Tory policy.

However all this is water under the bridge and how we support our hospitals against Tory Privatisation perhaps lies with a change of Government before they do any more damage, but for once Dave I am not on the side of the angels!!

As my old choirmaster at St.Helens Parish church, Stanley Shirtcliff would say when we sang something wrong "I think we had better leave by the back door!"

You are talking sense, as usual Bill, but God forbid that we return New Labour to government,

Dave’s letter says in essence.

The labour government had no money to invest in hospitals but went ahead anyway (for electoral reasons no doubt) so they embarked with their eyes wide open into a scheme that was fundamentally financially flawed and would result in future trouble as any responsible person should have judged. The results are a few years later these shiny new hospitals may close and the local public may end up with fewer hospitals than before the start of this mad scheme. Dave ends his letter blaming the current government for not spending more taxpayer’s money yet at the start of the letter says labour had to go PFI because the treasuries coffers were empty so where does he think the money is going to come from now? A huge contradiction of logic within his own letter and indicative of a man unfit for office where sound judgement is necessary. This is hopefully the end of Dave Watt’s now he has publically admitted he supported the PFI scheme at that time and now Whiston hospital and potentially others may be forced to close in the St Helens region. He may not as been directly responsible for the overall government strategy of PFI but he has admitted he strongly supported it for St Helens where it is now having a major impact on local public services. There is something called honour and Mr Watt’s should admit he got it wrong and very badly wrong indeed for the people he was elected to serve.

His time is up.

Sankey wrote:
Dave’s letter says in essence.

The labour government had no money to invest in hospitals but went ahead anyway (for electoral reasons no doubt) so they embarked with their eyes wide open into a scheme that was fundamentally financially flawed and would result in future trouble as any responsible person should have judged. The results are a few years later these shiny new hospitals may close and the local public may end up with fewer hospitals than before the start of this mad scheme. Dave ends his letter blaming the current government for not spending more taxpayer’s money yet at the start of the letter says labour had to go PFI because the treasuries coffers were empty so where does he think the money is going to come from now? A huge contradiction of logic within his own letter and indicative of a man unfit for office where sound judgement is necessary. This is hopefully the end of Dave Watt’s now he has publically admitted he supported the PFI scheme at that time and now Whiston hospital and potentially others may be forced to close in the St Helens region. He may not as been directly responsible for the overall government strategy of PFI but he has admitted he strongly supported it for St Helens where it is now having a major impact on local public services. There is something called honour and Mr Watt’s should admit he got it wrong and very badly wrong indeed for the people he was elected to serve.

His time is up.

Perhaps he will go to the House of Lords - that home for failed politicians. He fits the bill.

PFI is a treasury policy the big suits in Whitehall the unelected they have decided that we have this stupid idea the Tories first introduced the policy in t he 80s Labour campaigned against it ,Labour gain power PFI continues ,Coalition now in power more PFI signed off ,no wonder people are not bothered about politics

Great response Sankey.

Watts again comes across with idiotic, uneducated and unrealistic comments with regards Labour's systematic destruction of public services in conjunction with St Helens MBC, all backed up by his lap dog a bit further down the page.

The Labour Party do not care about anyone or anything in this Country, or our town, apart from to do whatever it takes for them to stay in power. If that means throwing hospitals and schools at the public which will endebt the taxpayer and the taxpayers children and grandchildren for years, well, who cares about that? If that means posting complete lies and Unionist propaganda through people's letterboxes for the local elections, who cares about that?

At the TUC conference today, attended by the Labour Party in force, the Labour Party have publicly stated that they would not u-turn on the coalition's savings. Sorry, in Labour terms 'cuts'.

Mr Watts, you and your party are an utter disgrace to this town and to Britain. You should be ashamed of the situation that you have left the Country in, and the situation you have left the public services of your town in. You should be ashamed of your Party's support of the Unionist movement that will leave this Country a shambles. This is all for your own political gains, and at the incalculable cost to the private sector who are desperately trying to keep the Country that Labour has nearly destroyed afloat with income tax take.

Why don't you have some respect for your constituents, resign and retire from public life?

CountyPalatine wrote:
Great response Sankey.

Watts again comes across with idiotic, uneducated and unrealistic comments with regards Labour's systematic destruction of public services in conjunction with St Helens MBC, all backed up by his lap dog a bit further down the page.

The Labour Party do not care about anyone or anything in this Country, or our town, apart from to do whatever it takes for them to stay in power. If that means throwing hospitals and schools at the public which will endebt the taxpayer and the taxpayers children and grandchildren for years, well, who cares about that? If that means posting complete lies and Unionist propaganda through people's letterboxes for the local elections, who cares about that?

At the TUC conference today, attended by the Labour Party in force, the Labour Party have publicly stated that they would not u-turn on the coalition's savings. Sorry, in Labour terms 'cuts'.

Mr Watts, you and your party are an utter disgrace to this town and to Britain. You should be ashamed of the situation that you have left the Country in, and the situation you have left the public services of your town in. You should be ashamed of your Party's support of the Unionist movement that will leave this Country a shambles. This is all for your own political gains, and at the incalculable cost to the private sector who are desperately trying to keep the Country that Labour has nearly destroyed afloat with income tax take.

Why don't you have some respect for your constituents, resign and retire from public life?

You don't hold back, do you CP? I was amazed but not surprised to hear Ed Balls today. He accuses the coalition of ruining the economy yet conveniently fails to recognize the fact that 28 months ago his party left the country with the worst deficit for generations - and failed to curb the corruption in the banks. Add to that the "hidden" PFI debt which is in the billions, and I would rather see a revolution than put New Labour back in power. Wishful thinking, perhaps!

Thank you for your kind words Mike, I always enjoy reading your letters. I would say that Dave Watts is an out and out liar. Liars annoy me.

I have never, ever read such a mis-informed and utterly false article as the one written at the head of this page. He and his party are an utter shambles and a disgrace to our Great Nation.

I fear for the people of St Helens in the future with the mini-Greece scenario of Dave Watts' creation.

http://news.bbc.co.u
k/today/hi/today/new
sid_9731000/9731966.
stm

This interview with Chris Ham from the Kings Trust backs up exactly what I wrote earlier in my point about building one new hospital encompassing all services rather than three.

I simply don't know how Dave Watts can defend the stance on PFI's. This former Uk ambassador and human rights activist also has it spot on ....
http://www.craigmurr
ay.org.uk/archives/2
011/09/pfi-disaster/

At least Andy Burnham MP quoted in the Torygraph here http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/health/health
news/8779598/Private
-Finance-Initiative-
where-did-all-go-wro
ng.html
admits mistakes were made.
Why can't Dave Watts do the same?