Strikers close schools and council buildings in dispute over pay and pensions

St Helens Star: Strikers close schools and council buildings in dispute over pay and pensions Strikers close schools and council buildings in dispute over pay and pensions

STRIKERS in St Helens claimed a united front this morning as picket lines cropped up outside council buildings and depots.

They have joined a 24 hour national public sector strike over what they claim are cuts to their pay packet and pension.

Council services were severely disrupted with schools, libraries and leisure centres closed. Brown bin and recycling collections have been cancelled.

Essential services, including care for the elderly and vulnerable, have been maintained.

Speaking outside St Helens Town Hall members of the GMB said: “We have effectively had a pay cut for the past four years and the employers are refusing to negotiate.

“People have had enough. The government has the key to unlock this dispute but they are not willing to do it.

“They are talking about bringing legislation in unless 50 per cent of members vote for action but they can get elected with less than 30 per cent along with councillors.

"The libraries are closed and the town hall and we take no delight in that, but the message needs to get across.

“It’s very important that we stick together. The aim is to get the employers back round the table and take a negotiated settlement.”

Although some council workers did cross the picket line, the members said that overall the response has been supportive.

Outside the Gamble building a notice stuck to the door informed people that the library was closed. Union members from Unison said: “We have had no proper pay rise for years while the price of everything else has risen.

“The cost of living has risen and we have had a pay cut.

“We have to make a stand because we can take only so many knocks. We have just spoken to one man who said ‘good on you’.

“There are pickets all over town, including Wesley House and Hardshaw Brook. We realise it’s inconvenient for people but in the long run we can provide a better service but we are just asking for a reasonable living wage.”

Up to 32 schools in St Helens are expected to close. However, 14 schools will be fully open and a further 16 partially open.

Speaking ahead of the strike, Patrick White, secretary of the St Helens branch of the National Union of Teachers (NUT), said: “Teachers are very concerned that not only have they seen their pay fall back over the past few years after a government pay freeze, but have also seen their working hours increase to nearly 60 hours on average in primary schools, and have also seen a rise in their pension age to 68.”

He said this “toxic mix” has already seen around 40 per cent of teachers leaving the profession within five years of starting.

Union members from Unison, Unite, GMB, Public and Commercial Services Union and the NUT will be joined by firefighters.

Matt Wrack, general secretary of the Fire Brigade Union, said: “The fact that this Government has united so many workers to take strike action is testament to the failure of their policies.”

 

Comments (65)

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9:47am Thu 10 Jul 14

lawman2004 says...

And would these council workers happily pay even more council tax so as to ward themselves a pay increase because thats the only place the money is going to come from.
And would these council workers happily pay even more council tax so as to ward themselves a pay increase because thats the only place the money is going to come from. lawman2004
  • Score: -3

10:05am Thu 10 Jul 14

othervictim says...

lawman2004 wrote:
And would these council workers happily pay even more council tax so as to ward themselves a pay increase because thats the only place the money is going to come from.
Ask your Recycling staff when they collect your rubbish how much their wages and conditions have been slashed over the last five years to keep down the Council Tax for those who have higher incomes. Council tax pays for a lot more the the wage of Council personnel but I don't hear complaints about that.
[quote][p][bold]lawman2004[/bold] wrote: And would these council workers happily pay even more council tax so as to ward themselves a pay increase because thats the only place the money is going to come from.[/p][/quote]Ask your Recycling staff when they collect your rubbish how much their wages and conditions have been slashed over the last five years to keep down the Council Tax for those who have higher incomes. Council tax pays for a lot more the the wage of Council personnel but I don't hear complaints about that. othervictim
  • Score: -2

10:13am Thu 10 Jul 14

lawman2004 says...

Council tax was meant to pay for services by being levied so that income matched expenditure. That is clearly not the case any more as Councils suck in vast amount of money to squander on the basis that they can always just up it when they find another pet project to spend it on.
Council tax was meant to pay for services by being levied so that income matched expenditure. That is clearly not the case any more as Councils suck in vast amount of money to squander on the basis that they can always just up it when they find another pet project to spend it on. lawman2004
  • Score: 3

10:17am Thu 10 Jul 14

Sankey says...

The public sector are told they might have to slightly (but not totally) enter the real world.

So they go on strike.

Even after these conditions they are light years better than the private sector. What a joke these people are. Let them strike and strike as many times as they want dont give them an inch. And finally when they describe it as striking against the government what they mean is striking against the taxpayer as its the taxpayer who has to fund their demands and entitlement. The government has no money we provide it.
The public sector are told they might have to slightly (but not totally) enter the real world. So they go on strike. Even after these conditions they are light years better than the private sector. What a joke these people are. Let them strike and strike as many times as they want dont give them an inch. And finally when they describe it as striking against the government what they mean is striking against the taxpayer as its the taxpayer who has to fund their demands and entitlement. The government has no money we provide it. Sankey
  • Score: -12

10:24am Thu 10 Jul 14

Hughwithaview says...

I accept that the pay freeze has had a very detrimental effect as the cost of living has risen steeply whilst pay had practically stood still. However, I cannot see anything to be gained by this strike. Unions will take their members into this action, it will be recorded on their records and on their pension statements as a break in service and month or so down the line the Unions will send a statement out that the Government will not increase their offer (or if they do it will be something miniscule like 0.5%) and advise their members to accept it.

Strikes like the one today are just about the Unions going through the motions to try and justify the substantial subscriptions they take out of their members wages every month.
I accept that the pay freeze has had a very detrimental effect as the cost of living has risen steeply whilst pay had practically stood still. However, I cannot see anything to be gained by this strike. Unions will take their members into this action, it will be recorded on their records and on their pension statements as a break in service and month or so down the line the Unions will send a statement out that the Government will not increase their offer (or if they do it will be something miniscule like 0.5%) and advise their members to accept it. Strikes like the one today are just about the Unions going through the motions to try and justify the substantial subscriptions they take out of their members wages every month. Hughwithaview
  • Score: 9

10:33am Thu 10 Jul 14

othervictim says...

I am a retired HGV driver and I know for a fact that my net income from my pensions is greater than the net income for a recycling Green Waste Vehicle Driver in St Helens, how do I know this because someone close to me drives one of them.
I am a retired HGV driver and I know for a fact that my net income from my pensions is greater than the net income for a recycling Green Waste Vehicle Driver in St Helens, how do I know this because someone close to me drives one of them. othervictim
  • Score: 0

11:01am Thu 10 Jul 14

lawman2004 says...

Labour voters and Union lovers can't have it all ways. Their party decided to fill the UK with cheap immigration labour and drive down wages in doing so. Yet still they keep the red flag flying and vote for the Labour party time and time again, even though they are the ones who put them in to this sorry state of affairs by flooding the UK with cheap labour...
Labour voters and Union lovers can't have it all ways. Their party decided to fill the UK with cheap immigration labour and drive down wages in doing so. Yet still they keep the red flag flying and vote for the Labour party time and time again, even though they are the ones who put them in to this sorry state of affairs by flooding the UK with cheap labour... lawman2004
  • Score: 15

11:56am Thu 10 Jul 14

Star_reader says...

Yes, the MP's salary increase of 11% is an insult to all, but two wrongs don't make a right. So fix the problem, don't add to it.

And yes strikers, you did vote for the the action, however to answer the criticism of those who have said the majority of union members did not want this strike, with the turnout at the last general election is IMHO is also inherently wrong.
I.e. comparing the 27% of voters who could be bothered to vote for action with the 65% turnout at the last general election. Not even a third of the eligible union voters bothered to vote, almost two thirds of the electorate did.

Also where do the public sector think this extra pay will come from, the answer is the majority will come from the private sector workers who easily outnumber public workers, so we're not in this all together are we
?
Yes, the MP's salary increase of 11% is an insult to all, but two wrongs don't make a right. So fix the problem, don't add to it. And yes strikers, you did vote for the the action, however to answer the criticism of those who have said the majority of union members did not want this strike, with the turnout at the last general election is IMHO is also inherently wrong. I.e. comparing the 27% of voters who could be bothered to vote for action with the 65% turnout at the last general election. Not even a third of the eligible union voters bothered to vote, almost two thirds of the electorate did. Also where do the public sector think this extra pay will come from, the answer is the majority will come from the private sector workers who easily outnumber public workers, so we're not in this all together are we ? Star_reader
  • Score: 5

1:18pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Lots of adverse comments garnered from the right wing press, Mail and Torygraph readers plus the "usual suspects" My Union is not out today but will be supporting the TUC General Strike on 18th. October.
Comments from NUT and other unions mention the reasons as I know for a fact (from personal contact with my GS) that Gove and the DfE (which he is currently closing down)-schools will be their own free agents when they are all forced into Academy (Private) status even to putting the owner of Car-phone Warehouse in charge of Ofsted- a major donor to the Tories.

As to the private sector and cheap immigration, as Lawman mentions, he has obviously never heard of"Intra Company transfers" which is becoming the largest area of workers coming in from abroad from International companies. As I have commented to Sankey many times, cheap labour is brought in by Tory bosses and Agencies wanting to pay less than minimum wage. Sankey we are all tax payers as well. Thank God we don't have to rely on you to pay us. We would be all in the workhouse or treadmill which you would probably support for these selfish Trade Unionists. As You often enjoy reminding me I am on a very good pension, could have been more if properly funded not notional-but we have had that debate last year. You may be similarly well endowed sniping from the sidelines.

As to the size of ballots I would welcome a change to a % of members for then it would get many "keeping their heads down" off their knees and backsides and vote. That is why under Thatcher and when I was a TU secretary and activist, I supported ballots-putting the union into the hands of members.
However stretching that principle, who voted in this Government? Certainly not the majority of people. Governments should only be legitimate if more than 50% voted for them!!??
Asking teachers to work until they drop at 68 and probably beyond to my mind is a novel way of saving on pensions. They will be dead.

Teaching is becoming a low paid and temporary profession with nearly 50% of Newly qualified leaving in 5 years. Even an ex Company Sergeant Major left after one year in a London school. Obviously his pupils failed to "get fell in"! Some pay criteria of Academies and Governors is to pay heads what they want and teachers with what they can get away with. (Heads are to be allowed 25% above their scale if approved by GB's)
With the super rich being let off from tax evasion through Government incompetence I say good luck to the strikers-but I would say that wouldn't I?
Lots of adverse comments garnered from the right wing press, Mail and Torygraph readers plus the "usual suspects" My Union is not out today but will be supporting the TUC General Strike on 18th. October. Comments from NUT and other unions mention the reasons as I know for a fact (from personal contact with my GS) that Gove and the DfE (which he is currently closing down)-schools will be their own free agents when they are all forced into Academy (Private) status even to putting the owner of Car-phone Warehouse in charge of Ofsted- a major donor to the Tories. As to the private sector and cheap immigration, as Lawman mentions, he has obviously never heard of"Intra Company transfers" which is becoming the largest area of workers coming in from abroad from International companies. As I have commented to Sankey many times, cheap labour is brought in by Tory bosses and Agencies wanting to pay less than minimum wage. Sankey we are all tax payers as well. Thank God we don't have to rely on you to pay us. We would be all in the workhouse or treadmill which you would probably support for these selfish Trade Unionists. As You often enjoy reminding me I am on a very good pension, could have been more if properly funded not notional-but we have had that debate last year. You may be similarly well endowed sniping from the sidelines. As to the size of ballots I would welcome a change to a % of members for then it would get many "keeping their heads down" off their knees and backsides and vote. That is why under Thatcher and when I was a TU secretary and activist, I supported ballots-putting the union into the hands of members. However stretching that principle, who voted in this Government? Certainly not the majority of people. Governments should only be legitimate if more than 50% voted for them!!?? Asking teachers to work until they drop at 68 and probably beyond to my mind is a novel way of saving on pensions. They will be dead. Teaching is becoming a low paid and temporary profession with nearly 50% of Newly qualified leaving in 5 years. Even an ex Company Sergeant Major left after one year in a London school. Obviously his pupils failed to "get fell in"! Some pay criteria of Academies and Governors is to pay heads what they want and teachers with what they can get away with. (Heads are to be allowed 25% above their scale if approved by GB's) With the super rich being let off from tax evasion through Government incompetence I say good luck to the strikers-but I would say that wouldn't I? Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 3

2:00pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Hughwithaview says...

Teaching low paid? I bet there are quite a few professions out there who would like to be so "low paid"

As for "working till they drop at 68" I do not remember any of them complaining when they could finish on a nice big fat pension in their early fifties - but then that was the good old days when they got home in time for Blue Peter!
Teaching low paid? I bet there are quite a few professions out there who would like to be so "low paid" As for "working till they drop at 68" I do not remember any of them complaining when they could finish on a nice big fat pension in their early fifties - but then that was the good old days when they got home in time for Blue Peter! Hughwithaview
  • Score: 13

3:47pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Star_reader says...

Starting salary;
Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a NEWLY qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on a minimum of £21,804 a year (or £27,270 if you work in inner London).

Main pay ranges, including NQTs:

London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914
Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468
Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751
Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868

Teaching benefits
In addition to your basic salary, you will also receive a range of benefits, including:

Teaching and learning responsibility (TLR) payments – additional money if you take on additional responsibilities
teachers' pension – the second largest public sector pension scheme in the country
holidays – more days than many people in other professions, though teachers work for 195 days per year in school, and do some work during their holidays

All taken from
http://www.education
.gov.uk/get-into-tea
ching/about-teaching
/salary/pay-and-bene
fits.aspx?sc_lang=en
-GB

So yes the poor hard done by teachers...... agreed not excessive but again not really on the breadline is it.

Oh and job stability, lets not forget that.
2001-2001 just 17 of the 400,000 were struck off for incompetence.
Starting salary; Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a NEWLY qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on a minimum of £21,804 a year (or £27,270 if you work in inner London). Main pay ranges, including NQTs: London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914 Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468 Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751 Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868 Teaching benefits In addition to your basic salary, you will also receive a range of benefits, including: Teaching and learning responsibility (TLR) payments – additional money if you take on additional responsibilities teachers' pension – the second largest public sector pension scheme in the country holidays – more days than many people in other professions, though teachers work for 195 days per year in school, and do some work during their holidays All taken from http://www.education .gov.uk/get-into-tea ching/about-teaching /salary/pay-and-bene fits.aspx?sc_lang=en -GB So yes the poor hard done by teachers...... agreed not excessive but again not really on the breadline is it. Oh and job stability, lets not forget that. 2001-2001 just 17 of the 400,000 were struck off for incompetence. Star_reader
  • Score: 13

4:02pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Star_reader says...

Sorry that should have said 2001-2011
Sorry that should have said 2001-2011 Star_reader
  • Score: -1

4:07pm Thu 10 Jul 14

kate_359 says...

What I don't get parents get fined for taking their children out of school to go on holidays during term time but it's ok for staff to strike in term time and they don't get fined.
What I don't get parents get fined for taking their children out of school to go on holidays during term time but it's ok for staff to strike in term time and they don't get fined. kate_359
  • Score: 12

5:09pm Thu 10 Jul 14

TOM J. says...

My wife is on strike today .
On other days se has ben on strike she has been amazed to find her pay for the month has barely changed so no loss of a days money at all -- not sure why.
I work in the private secor & have done so from 18, I find myself currently in a position of my employer putting 6% into my salary pot. I put into it myself too obviously & it makes a total of 12%
My wife has her employer ( Dept work & Pensions) put in 16.7% for her & she puts in 2%.
I will still be dragging my behind to work @ 66, where as she will retire @ 60 on a nice pension.

If they were treated on pensions like the private sector then I would be a bit more sympathetic.
My wife is on strike today . On other days se has ben on strike she has been amazed to find her pay for the month has barely changed so no loss of a days money at all -- not sure why. I work in the private secor & have done so from 18, I find myself currently in a position of my employer putting 6% into my salary pot. I put into it myself too obviously & it makes a total of 12% My wife has her employer ( Dept work & Pensions) put in 16.7% for her & she puts in 2%. I will still be dragging my behind to work @ 66, where as she will retire @ 60 on a nice pension. If they were treated on pensions like the private sector then I would be a bit more sympathetic. TOM J.
  • Score: 9

5:34pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Hughwithaview wrote:
Teaching low paid? I bet there are quite a few professions out there who would like to be so "low paid"

As for "working till they drop at 68" I do not remember any of them complaining when they could finish on a nice big fat pension in their early fifties - but then that was the good old days when they got home in time for Blue Peter!
Yes the "good old days" when teachers taught and were not expected to be surrogate parents and social workers. Where we were trusted to teach the syllabus we were given without constant observation and form filling which saw the demise of the generous free time teachers gave after school and at week-ends for sporting activities.
Glad to see you subscribe to the fact people should not get "big fat pensions". What in your opinion is a big fat pension or what the least teachers should get after 40 years service? The majority of pensions I saw from my members rarely reached £5000 per year. It has been over 14 years and probably longer, since teachers got fat pensions when retiring in their 50's many due to stress and ill-health retirement also another thing of the past. yet another mouthing off by misinformation from the Tory press.

Non qualified being encouraged into the profession by Gove and teachers paid on "spot" salaries on very short term contracts yet probably another feature you would approve in the "race to the bottom"
[quote][p][bold]Hughwithaview[/bold] wrote: Teaching low paid? I bet there are quite a few professions out there who would like to be so "low paid" As for "working till they drop at 68" I do not remember any of them complaining when they could finish on a nice big fat pension in their early fifties - but then that was the good old days when they got home in time for Blue Peter![/p][/quote]Yes the "good old days" when teachers taught and were not expected to be surrogate parents and social workers. Where we were trusted to teach the syllabus we were given without constant observation and form filling which saw the demise of the generous free time teachers gave after school and at week-ends for sporting activities. Glad to see you subscribe to the fact people should not get "big fat pensions". What in your opinion is a big fat pension or what the least teachers should get after 40 years service? The majority of pensions I saw from my members rarely reached £5000 per year. It has been over 14 years and probably longer, since teachers got fat pensions when retiring in their 50's many due to stress and ill-health retirement also another thing of the past. yet another mouthing off by misinformation from the Tory press. Non qualified being encouraged into the profession by Gove and teachers paid on "spot" salaries on very short term contracts yet probably another feature you would approve in the "race to the bottom" Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 1

5:45pm Thu 10 Jul 14

keepitreel says...

my sympathy has long gone for any public worker,but i had to laugh this morning when a union rep was bleating on about some of his members having to have 2 or 3 jobs or having 2 jobs in the same dept at the same council,now forgive me but how the hell does that work.
I was always taught to live within my means and if that means i cant have the latest xyz like my neighbours so be it,what makes a low level council worker or teacher think they should have a lifestyle of someone who earns a lot more than them.
my sympathy has long gone for any public worker,but i had to laugh this morning when a union rep was bleating on about some of his members having to have 2 or 3 jobs or having 2 jobs in the same dept at the same council,now forgive me but how the hell does that work. I was always taught to live within my means and if that means i cant have the latest xyz like my neighbours so be it,what makes a low level council worker or teacher think they should have a lifestyle of someone who earns a lot more than them. keepitreel
  • Score: -1

5:58pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Sankey says...

I understand the ballot the NUT are using to promote this pointless strike was from 2012 and had less than 23 per cent of the members eligible to vote in favour

If this is true it's a national scandal a small number of politically motivated zealots can cause such disruption to the nation, schoolchildren and their parents most of whom receive nothing like the gold plated benefits teachers get.

There needs to be legislation urgently to ensure strikes are only allowed where the majority of the members eligible to vote have done so. Anything less most be made illegal.

I have been critical of teachers but it's clear the majority of teacher (by far) don't support this action and it's a political strike
I understand the ballot the NUT are using to promote this pointless strike was from 2012 and had less than 23 per cent of the members eligible to vote in favour If this is true it's a national scandal a small number of politically motivated zealots can cause such disruption to the nation, schoolchildren and their parents most of whom receive nothing like the gold plated benefits teachers get. There needs to be legislation urgently to ensure strikes are only allowed where the majority of the members eligible to vote have done so. Anything less most be made illegal. I have been critical of teachers but it's clear the majority of teacher (by far) don't support this action and it's a political strike Sankey
  • Score: 3

6:27pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Hughwithaview says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
Hughwithaview wrote:
Teaching low paid? I bet there are quite a few professions out there who would like to be so "low paid"

As for "working till they drop at 68" I do not remember any of them complaining when they could finish on a nice big fat pension in their early fifties - but then that was the good old days when they got home in time for Blue Peter!
Yes the "good old days" when teachers taught and were not expected to be surrogate parents and social workers. Where we were trusted to teach the syllabus we were given without constant observation and form filling which saw the demise of the generous free time teachers gave after school and at week-ends for sporting activities.
Glad to see you subscribe to the fact people should not get "big fat pensions". What in your opinion is a big fat pension or what the least teachers should get after 40 years service? The majority of pensions I saw from my members rarely reached £5000 per year. It has been over 14 years and probably longer, since teachers got fat pensions when retiring in their 50's many due to stress and ill-health retirement also another thing of the past. yet another mouthing off by misinformation from the Tory press.

Non qualified being encouraged into the profession by Gove and teachers paid on "spot" salaries on very short term contracts yet probably another feature you would approve in the "race to the bottom"
Oh dear that hit home didn't it Bill and once again you immidiately assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a Tory.

I actually believe in a fair rate of pay for everyone but to suggest that teachers are not well paid is ludicrous. Yes, they should primarily be there to teach but there are many occupations which have had to adapt and take on extra work so they are not unique in that. As for "constant observation and form filling, targets and inspections are not new either - these strategies were in place before the coalition.

Stress and ill health due to work is a common problem amongst many professions these days as more and more is demanded of workers so teachers are not the only ones suffering.

Finally, do not assume you know more about teachers than I - believe me I have come across many in my life - good ones and bad ones. Perhaps however people would have more sympathy if some of them did not act as if their profession was the only one that counted and did not insist on telling us what a bad hand they have been dealt.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Hughwithaview[/bold] wrote: Teaching low paid? I bet there are quite a few professions out there who would like to be so "low paid" As for "working till they drop at 68" I do not remember any of them complaining when they could finish on a nice big fat pension in their early fifties - but then that was the good old days when they got home in time for Blue Peter![/p][/quote]Yes the "good old days" when teachers taught and were not expected to be surrogate parents and social workers. Where we were trusted to teach the syllabus we were given without constant observation and form filling which saw the demise of the generous free time teachers gave after school and at week-ends for sporting activities. Glad to see you subscribe to the fact people should not get "big fat pensions". What in your opinion is a big fat pension or what the least teachers should get after 40 years service? The majority of pensions I saw from my members rarely reached £5000 per year. It has been over 14 years and probably longer, since teachers got fat pensions when retiring in their 50's many due to stress and ill-health retirement also another thing of the past. yet another mouthing off by misinformation from the Tory press. Non qualified being encouraged into the profession by Gove and teachers paid on "spot" salaries on very short term contracts yet probably another feature you would approve in the "race to the bottom"[/p][/quote]Oh dear that hit home didn't it Bill and once again you immidiately assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a Tory. I actually believe in a fair rate of pay for everyone but to suggest that teachers are not well paid is ludicrous. Yes, they should primarily be there to teach but there are many occupations which have had to adapt and take on extra work so they are not unique in that. As for "constant observation and form filling, targets and inspections are not new either - these strategies were in place before the coalition. Stress and ill health due to work is a common problem amongst many professions these days as more and more is demanded of workers so teachers are not the only ones suffering. Finally, do not assume you know more about teachers than I - believe me I have come across many in my life - good ones and bad ones. Perhaps however people would have more sympathy if some of them did not act as if their profession was the only one that counted and did not insist on telling us what a bad hand they have been dealt. Hughwithaview
  • Score: 11

6:49pm Thu 10 Jul 14

MrBenggo says...

I have read through the comments and ask the question,"what would you do if your pay and conditions were changed,for the worse"?
After negotiations with "the bosses"ie. in this case the government,you find it is a waste of time because the government has no intention of listening,you find that "the bosses have been given an 11% pay rise.
Do you just sit back and allow your living standards drop?
Do you just sit back and say well things will get better for us?
Or do you use the only thing left and withdraw your labour?
I have read through the comments and ask the question,"what would you do if your pay and conditions were changed,for the worse"? After negotiations with "the bosses"ie. in this case the government,you find it is a waste of time because the government has no intention of listening,you find that "the bosses have been given an 11% pay rise. Do you just sit back and allow your living standards drop? Do you just sit back and say well things will get better for us? Or do you use the only thing left and withdraw your labour? MrBenggo
  • Score: 1

7:10pm Thu 10 Jul 14

Sankey says...

MrBenggo wrote:
I have read through the comments and ask the question,"what would you do if your pay and conditions were changed,for the worse"?
After negotiations with "the bosses"ie. in this case the government,you find it is a waste of time because the government has no intention of listening,you find that "the bosses have been given an 11% pay rise.
Do you just sit back and allow your living standards drop?
Do you just sit back and say well things will get better for us?
Or do you use the only thing left and withdraw your labour?
I think most people would seek alternative employment.

That never happens rarely do people move from the public sector to the private sector and with good reason, Due to the culture in the public sector many are unemployable in the competitive world of the private sector and of course the pay and conditions in the private sector are considerably worse.

But at the end of the day if it is so bad LEAVE.

I guarantee you won't
[quote][p][bold]MrBenggo[/bold] wrote: I have read through the comments and ask the question,"what would you do if your pay and conditions were changed,for the worse"? After negotiations with "the bosses"ie. in this case the government,you find it is a waste of time because the government has no intention of listening,you find that "the bosses have been given an 11% pay rise. Do you just sit back and allow your living standards drop? Do you just sit back and say well things will get better for us? Or do you use the only thing left and withdraw your labour?[/p][/quote]I think most people would seek alternative employment. That never happens rarely do people move from the public sector to the private sector and with good reason, Due to the culture in the public sector many are unemployable in the competitive world of the private sector and of course the pay and conditions in the private sector are considerably worse. But at the end of the day if it is so bad LEAVE. I guarantee you won't Sankey
  • Score: 3

10:24pm Thu 10 Jul 14

anthonywilson says...

Star_reader wrote:
Starting salary;
Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a NEWLY qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on a minimum of £21,804 a year (or £27,270 if you work in inner London).

Main pay ranges, including NQTs:

London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914
Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468
Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751
Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868

Teaching benefits
In addition to your basic salary, you will also receive a range of benefits, including:

Teaching and learning responsibility (TLR) payments – additional money if you take on additional responsibilities
teachers' pension – the second largest public sector pension scheme in the country
holidays – more days than many people in other professions, though teachers work for 195 days per year in school, and do some work during their holidays

All taken from
http://www.education

.gov.uk/get-into-tea

ching/about-teaching

/salary/pay-and-bene

fits.aspx?sc_lang=en

-GB

So yes the poor hard done by teachers...... agreed not excessive but again not really on the breadline is it.

Oh and job stability, lets not forget that.
2001-2001 just 17 of the 400,000 were struck off for incompetence.
Its worth remembering that it also costs teachers at least £36,000 and in most cases even more in order to be trained/qualified. That money although borrowed via student loans has to be paid back and with interest.
[quote][p][bold]Star_reader[/bold] wrote: Starting salary; Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a NEWLY qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on a minimum of £21,804 a year (or £27,270 if you work in inner London). Main pay ranges, including NQTs: London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914 Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468 Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751 Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868 Teaching benefits In addition to your basic salary, you will also receive a range of benefits, including: Teaching and learning responsibility (TLR) payments – additional money if you take on additional responsibilities teachers' pension – the second largest public sector pension scheme in the country holidays – more days than many people in other professions, though teachers work for 195 days per year in school, and do some work during their holidays All taken from http://www.education .gov.uk/get-into-tea ching/about-teaching /salary/pay-and-bene fits.aspx?sc_lang=en -GB So yes the poor hard done by teachers...... agreed not excessive but again not really on the breadline is it. Oh and job stability, lets not forget that. 2001-2001 just 17 of the 400,000 were struck off for incompetence.[/p][/quote]Its worth remembering that it also costs teachers at least £36,000 and in most cases even more in order to be trained/qualified. That money although borrowed via student loans has to be paid back and with interest. anthonywilson
  • Score: 6

8:16am Fri 11 Jul 14

sunshineandshowers says...

Having worked in both the private sector and the public sector and not being a union member I chose to cross the picket line yesterday as for one thing I didn't know there was a strike this week until a colleague from another authority cancelled a meeting. There is little union activity within my workplace. As previous posters have said the world of work is a different place now and public sector salaries are no different to the private sector in not receiving pay rises for a few years. I don't have performance related pay. I did in the private sector. I have worked in education and some teachers received increments for length of service not because they were making any impact on children's learning. A colleague was told yesterday that lots of council staff were reliant on food banks. A lot of private sector workers are also relying on food banks. She was also told colleagues wouldn't talk to her when they came back in today. Seriously this is not 1984....
Having worked in both the private sector and the public sector and not being a union member I chose to cross the picket line yesterday as for one thing I didn't know there was a strike this week until a colleague from another authority cancelled a meeting. There is little union activity within my workplace. As previous posters have said the world of work is a different place now and public sector salaries are no different to the private sector in not receiving pay rises for a few years. I don't have performance related pay. I did in the private sector. I have worked in education and some teachers received increments for length of service not because they were making any impact on children's learning. A colleague was told yesterday that lots of council staff were reliant on food banks. A lot of private sector workers are also relying on food banks. She was also told colleagues wouldn't talk to her when they came back in today. Seriously this is not 1984.... sunshineandshowers
  • Score: 4

8:49am Fri 11 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Anthony a very selective salary example noting the usual trick to throw in London allowances which even on those levels teachers cannot afford to live in London especially the cost of housing. Get real and see for yourself.

As to the rest of your figures you are dwelling in the past which again is a common ply to rubbish any action. It has probably escaped your notice that national salary scales have been abolished especially in Academies and Free schools (which ALL schools will become when the Tories are returned by those who are anti anything Trade Union.

Non qualified and spot salaries at a rate a school can get away with is taking off very quickly to balance budgets AND to make a profit as Gove is urging. Something else that many of the commentators above would approve of no doubt!!??

Sunshine you are free to cross any picket line being non union. I hope you are treated well in your place of work and receiving a level of pay on which you can manage. Indeed you are right the world is a different place and Education is currently finding that out, speaking as an ex-teacher and a Governor in 4 schools plus daily contacts with teachers in those schools and throughout my union (NASUWT) which did not strike yesterday. We are taking a different type of long term action by sticking to our contract.

Sankey I would be disappointed if you had not continued your pathological hatred of the Public sector workers. I am afraid you are beyond redemption no matter what arguments I put forward. However I do enjoy your contributions-keep them up. You are always civil even if misinformed! (could not resist that!!)
Anthony a very selective salary example noting the usual trick to throw in London allowances which even on those levels teachers cannot afford to live in London especially the cost of housing. Get real and see for yourself. As to the rest of your figures you are dwelling in the past which again is a common ply to rubbish any action. It has probably escaped your notice that national salary scales have been abolished especially in Academies and Free schools (which ALL schools will become when the Tories are returned by those who are anti anything Trade Union. Non qualified and spot salaries at a rate a school can get away with is taking off very quickly to balance budgets AND to make a profit as Gove is urging. Something else that many of the commentators above would approve of no doubt!!?? Sunshine you are free to cross any picket line being non union. I hope you are treated well in your place of work and receiving a level of pay on which you can manage. Indeed you are right the world is a different place and Education is currently finding that out, speaking as an ex-teacher and a Governor in 4 schools plus daily contacts with teachers in those schools and throughout my union (NASUWT) which did not strike yesterday. We are taking a different type of long term action by sticking to our contract. Sankey I would be disappointed if you had not continued your pathological hatred of the Public sector workers. I am afraid you are beyond redemption no matter what arguments I put forward. However I do enjoy your contributions-keep them up. You are always civil even if misinformed! (could not resist that!!) Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 0

8:50am Fri 11 Jul 14

Star_reader says...

anthonywilson wrote:
Star_reader wrote:
Starting salary;
Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a NEWLY qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on a minimum of £21,804 a year (or £27,270 if you work in inner London).

Main pay ranges, including NQTs:

London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914
Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468
Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751
Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868

Teaching benefits
In addition to your basic salary, you will also receive a range of benefits, including:

Teaching and learning responsibility (TLR) payments – additional money if you take on additional responsibilities
teachers' pension – the second largest public sector pension scheme in the country
holidays – more days than many people in other professions, though teachers work for 195 days per year in school, and do some work during their holidays

All taken from
http://www.education


.gov.uk/get-into-tea


ching/about-teaching


/salary/pay-and-bene


fits.aspx?sc_lang=en


-GB

So yes the poor hard done by teachers...... agreed not excessive but again not really on the breadline is it.

Oh and job stability, lets not forget that.
2001-2001 just 17 of the 400,000 were struck off for incompetence.
Its worth remembering that it also costs teachers at least £36,000 and in most cases even more in order to be trained/qualified. That money although borrowed via student loans has to be paid back and with interest.
How is that different from other degrees? Its no.
[quote][p][bold]anthonywilson[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Star_reader[/bold] wrote: Starting salary; Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a NEWLY qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on a minimum of £21,804 a year (or £27,270 if you work in inner London). Main pay ranges, including NQTs: London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914 Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468 Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751 Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868 Teaching benefits In addition to your basic salary, you will also receive a range of benefits, including: Teaching and learning responsibility (TLR) payments – additional money if you take on additional responsibilities teachers' pension – the second largest public sector pension scheme in the country holidays – more days than many people in other professions, though teachers work for 195 days per year in school, and do some work during their holidays All taken from http://www.education .gov.uk/get-into-tea ching/about-teaching /salary/pay-and-bene fits.aspx?sc_lang=en -GB So yes the poor hard done by teachers...... agreed not excessive but again not really on the breadline is it. Oh and job stability, lets not forget that. 2001-2001 just 17 of the 400,000 were struck off for incompetence.[/p][/quote]Its worth remembering that it also costs teachers at least £36,000 and in most cases even more in order to be trained/qualified. That money although borrowed via student loans has to be paid back and with interest.[/p][/quote]How is that different from other degrees? Its no. Star_reader
  • Score: 0

8:53am Fri 11 Jul 14

Star_reader says...

Star_reader wrote:
anthonywilson wrote:
Star_reader wrote:
Starting salary;
Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a NEWLY qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on a minimum of £21,804 a year (or £27,270 if you work in inner London).

Main pay ranges, including NQTs:

London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914
Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468
Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751
Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868

Teaching benefits
In addition to your basic salary, you will also receive a range of benefits, including:

Teaching and learning responsibility (TLR) payments – additional money if you take on additional responsibilities
teachers' pension – the second largest public sector pension scheme in the country
holidays – more days than many people in other professions, though teachers work for 195 days per year in school, and do some work during their holidays

All taken from
http://www.education



.gov.uk/get-into-tea



ching/about-teaching



/salary/pay-and-bene



fits.aspx?sc_lang=en



-GB

So yes the poor hard done by teachers...... agreed not excessive but again not really on the breadline is it.

Oh and job stability, lets not forget that.
2001-2001 just 17 of the 400,000 were struck off for incompetence.
Its worth remembering that it also costs teachers at least £36,000 and in most cases even more in order to be trained/qualified. That money although borrowed via student loans has to be paid back and with interest.
How is that different from other degrees? Its no.
Also, after checking on gov.uk, the majority would be paying £6.92 a week back, (£30 pcm).
I kind of think the benefits outweigh the investment.

https://www.gov.uk/s
tudent-finance/repay
ments
[quote][p][bold]Star_reader[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]anthonywilson[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Star_reader[/bold] wrote: Starting salary; Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a NEWLY qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on a minimum of £21,804 a year (or £27,270 if you work in inner London). Main pay ranges, including NQTs: London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914 Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468 Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751 Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868 Teaching benefits In addition to your basic salary, you will also receive a range of benefits, including: Teaching and learning responsibility (TLR) payments – additional money if you take on additional responsibilities teachers' pension – the second largest public sector pension scheme in the country holidays – more days than many people in other professions, though teachers work for 195 days per year in school, and do some work during their holidays All taken from http://www.education .gov.uk/get-into-tea ching/about-teaching /salary/pay-and-bene fits.aspx?sc_lang=en -GB So yes the poor hard done by teachers...... agreed not excessive but again not really on the breadline is it. Oh and job stability, lets not forget that. 2001-2001 just 17 of the 400,000 were struck off for incompetence.[/p][/quote]Its worth remembering that it also costs teachers at least £36,000 and in most cases even more in order to be trained/qualified. That money although borrowed via student loans has to be paid back and with interest.[/p][/quote]How is that different from other degrees? Its no.[/p][/quote]Also, after checking on gov.uk, the majority would be paying £6.92 a week back, (£30 pcm). I kind of think the benefits outweigh the investment. https://www.gov.uk/s tudent-finance/repay ments Star_reader
  • Score: 0

1:28pm Fri 11 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

It was Trade Unions that won hard earned rights for workers not kind hearted employers!
It is why Tories and UKIP ( the disaffected Tory Right wing) want us out of Europe so to get rid of Euro Employment protection. And many working class people in St.Helens voted for them! It beggars belief. Now that "man of the people" Farage,who regards himself not a self serving politician, want MP's paid £100,000 per year.
And since many are comparing teaching to the Private sector what jobs from this section do you have in mind if comparing like with like? Standing in front of a class for 5 or so hours, no time for a "quick cough and a drag" suffering abuse and non compliance with people constantly criticizing you and the results, with goalposts changed every year, arriving at school before 8 (some I see at 7.15am and leaving at 6 with lessons and books to mark, no week-ends so as to prepare next week's lessons and holidays taken up with preparing for the next term, to that of sitting in front of a desk shuffling paper, teachers earn every penny which over the last 5 years seen a reduction in cost of living pay to £2,600 (M1) £3000+ (M3) £4,500 (UPS) and greatly increased pension contributions with reduced benefits no wonder teachers are unhappy and taking action

Plus I note from these comments all other attacks on public sector workers are absent perhaps you accept their low pay?
It was Trade Unions that won hard earned rights for workers not kind hearted employers! It is why Tories and UKIP ( the disaffected Tory Right wing) want us out of Europe so to get rid of Euro Employment protection. And many working class people in St.Helens voted for them! It beggars belief. Now that "man of the people" Farage,who regards himself not a self serving politician, want MP's paid £100,000 per year. And since many are comparing teaching to the Private sector what jobs from this section do you have in mind if comparing like with like? Standing in front of a class for 5 or so hours, no time for a "quick cough and a drag" suffering abuse and non compliance with people constantly criticizing you and the results, with goalposts changed every year, arriving at school before 8 (some I see at 7.15am and leaving at 6 with lessons and books to mark, no week-ends so as to prepare next week's lessons and holidays taken up with preparing for the next term, to that of sitting in front of a desk shuffling paper, teachers earn every penny which over the last 5 years seen a reduction in cost of living pay to £2,600 (M1) £3000+ (M3) £4,500 (UPS) and greatly increased pension contributions with reduced benefits no wonder teachers are unhappy and taking action Plus I note from these comments all other attacks on public sector workers are absent perhaps you accept their low pay? Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 5

2:47pm Fri 11 Jul 14

Star_reader says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
It was Trade Unions that won hard earned rights for workers not kind hearted employers!
It is why Tories and UKIP ( the disaffected Tory Right wing) want us out of Europe so to get rid of Euro Employment protection. And many working class people in St.Helens voted for them! It beggars belief. Now that "man of the people" Farage,who regards himself not a self serving politician, want MP's paid £100,000 per year.
And since many are comparing teaching to the Private sector what jobs from this section do you have in mind if comparing like with like? Standing in front of a class for 5 or so hours, no time for a "quick cough and a drag" suffering abuse and non compliance with people constantly criticizing you and the results, with goalposts changed every year, arriving at school before 8 (some I see at 7.15am and leaving at 6 with lessons and books to mark, no week-ends so as to prepare next week's lessons and holidays taken up with preparing for the next term, to that of sitting in front of a desk shuffling paper, teachers earn every penny which over the last 5 years seen a reduction in cost of living pay to £2,600 (M1) £3000+ (M3) £4,500 (UPS) and greatly increased pension contributions with reduced benefits no wonder teachers are unhappy and taking action

Plus I note from these comments all other attacks on public sector workers are absent perhaps you accept their low pay?
Bill you brought teachers into the discussion, no-one else mentioned them before your claim of "Teaching is becoming a low paid and temporary profession with nearly 50% of Newly qualified leaving in 5 years."
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: It was Trade Unions that won hard earned rights for workers not kind hearted employers! It is why Tories and UKIP ( the disaffected Tory Right wing) want us out of Europe so to get rid of Euro Employment protection. And many working class people in St.Helens voted for them! It beggars belief. Now that "man of the people" Farage,who regards himself not a self serving politician, want MP's paid £100,000 per year. And since many are comparing teaching to the Private sector what jobs from this section do you have in mind if comparing like with like? Standing in front of a class for 5 or so hours, no time for a "quick cough and a drag" suffering abuse and non compliance with people constantly criticizing you and the results, with goalposts changed every year, arriving at school before 8 (some I see at 7.15am and leaving at 6 with lessons and books to mark, no week-ends so as to prepare next week's lessons and holidays taken up with preparing for the next term, to that of sitting in front of a desk shuffling paper, teachers earn every penny which over the last 5 years seen a reduction in cost of living pay to £2,600 (M1) £3000+ (M3) £4,500 (UPS) and greatly increased pension contributions with reduced benefits no wonder teachers are unhappy and taking action Plus I note from these comments all other attacks on public sector workers are absent perhaps you accept their low pay?[/p][/quote]Bill you brought teachers into the discussion, no-one else mentioned them before your claim of "Teaching is becoming a low paid and temporary profession with nearly 50% of Newly qualified leaving in 5 years." Star_reader
  • Score: 0

6:50pm Fri 11 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Star reader
unlike most on this comment site I can only comment on a sector of public service unions i.e. teachers, that I know something about. Concerning other trades unions all I know is what I read from the Tory press. (apart from The Mirror). Fire Brigade has similar dispute as us over pensions and being told to work until 60. So you will be carried down a ladder by a man nearly past his "sell by date".
The information I give on salaries and teachers leaving is from reliable Govt. sources. So why is nearly 50% of newly qualified leaving by 5 years if it is the easy, well paid life as many above reckon?

Just to throw in one other fact why is this Govt. preventing my trade union commenting on its education policy within a year of the election Talk about gagging and freedom. We cannot comment using the word "Government" There will be no national exam League table either this year and probably next. I will leave you to work that one out but the clue is that Gove has stopped schools getting better results by multiple sittings and coursework.
As for the new exam scoring system called Progress 8 it looks like the entry to the Waterloo Cup! Number crunching and double counting.
Star reader unlike most on this comment site I can only comment on a sector of public service unions i.e. teachers, that I know something about. Concerning other trades unions all I know is what I read from the Tory press. (apart from The Mirror). Fire Brigade has similar dispute as us over pensions and being told to work until 60. So you will be carried down a ladder by a man nearly past his "sell by date". The information I give on salaries and teachers leaving is from reliable Govt. sources. So why is nearly 50% of newly qualified leaving by 5 years if it is the easy, well paid life as many above reckon? Just to throw in one other fact why is this Govt. preventing my trade union commenting on its education policy within a year of the election Talk about gagging and freedom. We cannot comment using the word "Government" There will be no national exam League table either this year and probably next. I will leave you to work that one out but the clue is that Gove has stopped schools getting better results by multiple sittings and coursework. As for the new exam scoring system called Progress 8 it looks like the entry to the Waterloo Cup! Number crunching and double counting. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 3

7:10pm Fri 11 Jul 14

Sankey says...

That's hardship in the public sector having to work till you are 60 before retiring on full pension on a final salary scheme. I am surprised amnesty international are not involved !

The entitlement of these people us breathtaking

And of course the people who pay for it are private sector workers who could only dream of a pension like that
That's hardship in the public sector having to work till you are 60 before retiring on full pension on a final salary scheme. I am surprised amnesty international are not involved ! The entitlement of these people us breathtaking And of course the people who pay for it are private sector workers who could only dream of a pension like that Sankey
  • Score: -1

8:32pm Fri 11 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Sankey are you really serious to ask a fireman to work until he is 60 considering the difficult tasks they do. Plus getting rid of regulars and putting in retained as well as closing Fire Stations. Just what planet are you living on!
Sankey are you really serious to ask a fireman to work until he is 60 considering the difficult tasks they do. Plus getting rid of regulars and putting in retained as well as closing Fire Stations. Just what planet are you living on! Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 2

9:20am Sat 12 Jul 14

Keva68 says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
Sankey are you really serious to ask a fireman to work until he is 60 considering the difficult tasks they do. Plus getting rid of regulars and putting in retained as well as closing Fire Stations. Just what planet are you living on!
Think we have gone over this before Firefighters in other European countries work until 60.
Germany has a retirement age of 65 don't see why UK firemen are unable to do the same.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: Sankey are you really serious to ask a fireman to work until he is 60 considering the difficult tasks they do. Plus getting rid of regulars and putting in retained as well as closing Fire Stations. Just what planet are you living on![/p][/quote]Think we have gone over this before Firefighters in other European countries work until 60. Germany has a retirement age of 65 don't see why UK firemen are unable to do the same. Keva68
  • Score: 0

11:56am Sat 12 Jul 14

Hughwithaview says...

Have you not heard Bill?
With people living much longer these days, 60 is the new 40!

Not everyone reaching that milestone has their legs buckling underneath them with weight of oppression and wicked employers. Of course from your stand point anyone who does not see your point of view is a "usual suspect" and a heartless Tory who would like to see all workers from the coalface whipped into submission and grateful for any crumbs thrown from their "Masters" table.

This is a prime example of when politics blind common sense. No one will argue against the fact that some people are low paid and deserve more in the relation to the work they do and that plenty are blatently overpaid and over estimated. However, this is nothing new and has been going on since the beginning of time irrespective of which political party has been in power - should I remind you that the Bankers scandal started on Labour's watch?

I do have sympathy for the underpaid and would love to see the divide between rich and poor reduced but I will never concede that Teachers deserve our pity. Yes, they are being asked to do more than ever they were before but that does not mean they are poorly paid or that they should be treated any differently from any other profession.

As for Gove - he should be banished to Room 101 along with many others from both sides of the political divide.
Have you not heard Bill? With people living much longer these days, 60 is the new 40! Not everyone reaching that milestone has their legs buckling underneath them with weight of oppression and wicked employers. Of course from your stand point anyone who does not see your point of view is a "usual suspect" and a heartless Tory who would like to see all workers from the coalface whipped into submission and grateful for any crumbs thrown from their "Masters" table. This is a prime example of when politics blind common sense. No one will argue against the fact that some people are low paid and deserve more in the relation to the work they do and that plenty are blatently overpaid and over estimated. However, this is nothing new and has been going on since the beginning of time irrespective of which political party has been in power - should I remind you that the Bankers scandal started on Labour's watch? I do have sympathy for the underpaid and would love to see the divide between rich and poor reduced but I will never concede that Teachers deserve our pity. Yes, they are being asked to do more than ever they were before but that does not mean they are poorly paid or that they should be treated any differently from any other profession. As for Gove - he should be banished to Room 101 along with many others from both sides of the political divide. Hughwithaview
  • Score: 2

5:31pm Sat 12 Jul 14

barrie timpson says...

I think I'm with Bill on the firefighters, I don't think that decisions and actions that need to be taken in the course of a fire should be carried out by a 60 year old.

If anything went wrong, if he was too slow or got it wrong and somebody suffered , can you imagine the guilt he would feel?

I think that if they are to work until they are 60 then it should be in another capacity other than the front line.
I think I'm with Bill on the firefighters, I don't think that decisions and actions that need to be taken in the course of a fire should be carried out by a 60 year old. If anything went wrong, if he was too slow or got it wrong and somebody suffered , can you imagine the guilt he would feel? I think that if they are to work until they are 60 then it should be in another capacity other than the front line. barrie timpson
  • Score: 2

6:36pm Sat 12 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

barrie, Exactly.
Keva what the German and continental fire-fighting system is it may have different working practices and without knowing the full details I find it hard to see how you can comment unless you have worked alongside them or even visited a German fire station. What you say is just conjecture. Whether you are correct or not I can comment.
There is a world of difference in work at 60 as being dependent upon the job. I could sit at a desk and shunt paper until I am 70.
barrie, Exactly. Keva what the German and continental fire-fighting system is it may have different working practices and without knowing the full details I find it hard to see how you can comment unless you have worked alongside them or even visited a German fire station. What you say is just conjecture. Whether you are correct or not I can comment. There is a world of difference in work at 60 as being dependent upon the job. I could sit at a desk and shunt paper until I am 70. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 2

7:14pm Sat 12 Jul 14

Keva68 says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
barrie, Exactly.
Keva what the German and continental fire-fighting system is it may have different working practices and without knowing the full details I find it hard to see how you can comment unless you have worked alongside them or even visited a German fire station. What you say is just conjecture. Whether you are correct or not I can comment.
There is a world of difference in work at 60 as being dependent upon the job. I could sit at a desk and shunt paper until I am 70.
Besteigen von Leitern ist sehr einfach bei 60
Maybe they can look at other systems to enable them to work longer instead of just saying no and going on strike.
If compromise could be reached to ensure firemen are not sacked if they can't meet the physical demands I don't see it bring an issue.
Find them a desk job somewhere in the public sector to enable them to work until 60/65.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: barrie, Exactly. Keva what the German and continental fire-fighting system is it may have different working practices and without knowing the full details I find it hard to see how you can comment unless you have worked alongside them or even visited a German fire station. What you say is just conjecture. Whether you are correct or not I can comment. There is a world of difference in work at 60 as being dependent upon the job. I could sit at a desk and shunt paper until I am 70.[/p][/quote]Besteigen von Leitern ist sehr einfach bei 60 Maybe they can look at other systems to enable them to work longer instead of just saying no and going on strike. If compromise could be reached to ensure firemen are not sacked if they can't meet the physical demands I don't see it bring an issue. Find them a desk job somewhere in the public sector to enable them to work until 60/65. Keva68
  • Score: -1

10:17pm Sat 12 Jul 14

Hughwithaview says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
barrie, Exactly.
Keva what the German and continental fire-fighting system is it may have different working practices and without knowing the full details I find it hard to see how you can comment unless you have worked alongside them or even visited a German fire station. What you say is just conjecture. Whether you are correct or not I can comment.
There is a world of difference in work at 60 as being dependent upon the job. I could sit at a desk and shunt paper until I am 70.
Now we are getting to the nitty gritty - anyone who does a job that involves "manual" work is worn out by the age of 60 but if someone is sat at a desk "shunting papers" they can carry on until they are ready for a telegram from the Queen.

During my working life I have done both manual and office based work and I can tell you that there can be a lot of stress involved with what some would term a "sedentary" occupation Targets to be met, deadlines, not enough hours in the day etc. Stress is known to affect the heart and mental wellbeing so do not automatically assume that someone in an office job is necessarily in better health than a manual worker - you keep accusing others of making statements about which they know very little and now you are doing the same Bill.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: barrie, Exactly. Keva what the German and continental fire-fighting system is it may have different working practices and without knowing the full details I find it hard to see how you can comment unless you have worked alongside them or even visited a German fire station. What you say is just conjecture. Whether you are correct or not I can comment. There is a world of difference in work at 60 as being dependent upon the job. I could sit at a desk and shunt paper until I am 70.[/p][/quote]Now we are getting to the nitty gritty - anyone who does a job that involves "manual" work is worn out by the age of 60 but if someone is sat at a desk "shunting papers" they can carry on until they are ready for a telegram from the Queen. During my working life I have done both manual and office based work and I can tell you that there can be a lot of stress involved with what some would term a "sedentary" occupation Targets to be met, deadlines, not enough hours in the day etc. Stress is known to affect the heart and mental wellbeing so do not automatically assume that someone in an office job is necessarily in better health than a manual worker - you keep accusing others of making statements about which they know very little and now you are doing the same Bill. Hughwithaview
  • Score: 3

2:39pm Sun 13 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Hughwithaview wrote:
Bill Bradbury wrote:
barrie, Exactly.
Keva what the German and continental fire-fighting system is it may have different working practices and without knowing the full details I find it hard to see how you can comment unless you have worked alongside them or even visited a German fire station. What you say is just conjecture. Whether you are correct or not I can comment.
There is a world of difference in work at 60 as being dependent upon the job. I could sit at a desk and shunt paper until I am 70.
Now we are getting to the nitty gritty - anyone who does a job that involves "manual" work is worn out by the age of 60 but if someone is sat at a desk "shunting papers" they can carry on until they are ready for a telegram from the Queen.

During my working life I have done both manual and office based work and I can tell you that there can be a lot of stress involved with what some would term a "sedentary" occupation Targets to be met, deadlines, not enough hours in the day etc. Stress is known to affect the heart and mental wellbeing so do not automatically assume that someone in an office job is necessarily in better health than a manual worker - you keep accusing others of making statements about which they know very little and now you are doing the same Bill.
Hugh many thanks at last for supporting teachers which your last paragraph aptly describes. the stress, targets etc. It took a long time but you got there. Added to that abuse and threats from pupils and parents and you get the message at last. Papers don't abuse and make threats. I am also amazed at your perception of fitness that a 60 year old has.
[quote][p][bold]Hughwithaview[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: barrie, Exactly. Keva what the German and continental fire-fighting system is it may have different working practices and without knowing the full details I find it hard to see how you can comment unless you have worked alongside them or even visited a German fire station. What you say is just conjecture. Whether you are correct or not I can comment. There is a world of difference in work at 60 as being dependent upon the job. I could sit at a desk and shunt paper until I am 70.[/p][/quote]Now we are getting to the nitty gritty - anyone who does a job that involves "manual" work is worn out by the age of 60 but if someone is sat at a desk "shunting papers" they can carry on until they are ready for a telegram from the Queen. During my working life I have done both manual and office based work and I can tell you that there can be a lot of stress involved with what some would term a "sedentary" occupation Targets to be met, deadlines, not enough hours in the day etc. Stress is known to affect the heart and mental wellbeing so do not automatically assume that someone in an office job is necessarily in better health than a manual worker - you keep accusing others of making statements about which they know very little and now you are doing the same Bill.[/p][/quote]Hugh many thanks at last for supporting teachers which your last paragraph aptly describes. the stress, targets etc. It took a long time but you got there. Added to that abuse and threats from pupils and parents and you get the message at last. Papers don't abuse and make threats. I am also amazed at your perception of fitness that a 60 year old has. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 0

6:07pm Sun 13 Jul 14

Sankey says...

If the German fire service adopts a different system then let's adopt that system. I am also skeptical of the physical demands of a firefighter with risk assessments and health and safety it is far less physical than it used to be. I would imagine putting out a fire is pretty much the same in Germany as it is here. It's also not just Germany whose fire fighters retire at 60 and beyond most countries other than Britain do. Also most people in the public sector bleat about lack of money do they not realise pensions of the sort enjoyed by most of the public sector are hugely expensive. We are still in a major financial crisis we still have a deficit the money is simply not there and people in the public sector need to share the burden along with the rest of people. They are not a special case. As for the strike was week what a joke political posturing by a tiny number of whistle blowing placard waving activists many if whom are paid by the state to cause trouble certainly in the public sector as Union officials. The government for the sake of the British people should ignore them .
If the German fire service adopts a different system then let's adopt that system. I am also skeptical of the physical demands of a firefighter with risk assessments and health and safety it is far less physical than it used to be. I would imagine putting out a fire is pretty much the same in Germany as it is here. It's also not just Germany whose fire fighters retire at 60 and beyond most countries other than Britain do. Also most people in the public sector bleat about lack of money do they not realise pensions of the sort enjoyed by most of the public sector are hugely expensive. We are still in a major financial crisis we still have a deficit the money is simply not there and people in the public sector need to share the burden along with the rest of people. They are not a special case. As for the strike was week what a joke political posturing by a tiny number of whistle blowing placard waving activists many if whom are paid by the state to cause trouble certainly in the public sector as Union officials. The government for the sake of the British people should ignore them . Sankey
  • Score: -2

8:45pm Sun 13 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Sankey you use the word imagine. Well imagine on. As I wrote unless anyone knows hoe the German fire service is run we can imagine anything.
Sankey you use the word imagine. Well imagine on. As I wrote unless anyone knows hoe the German fire service is run we can imagine anything. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 1

7:02am Mon 14 Jul 14

Keva68 says...

‘A firefighter who earns £29,000, and retires after a full career aged 60 will get a £19,000 a year pension, rising to £26,000 with the state pension.
‘To get the same pension from a private scheme firefighters would have to contribute twice as much.

Well that's the best pension I've seen ,final salary pensions have disappeared in the private sector and that's as close as you will get.

So get back to work be thankful you still have a GREAT pension.Stop expecting cash strapped taxpayers to fund your early retirement while you probably take another job on.
If you don't like it LEAVE.
‘A firefighter who earns £29,000, and retires after a full career aged 60 will get a £19,000 a year pension, rising to £26,000 with the state pension. ‘To get the same pension from a private scheme firefighters would have to contribute twice as much. Well that's the best pension I've seen ,final salary pensions have disappeared in the private sector and that's as close as you will get. So get back to work be thankful you still have a GREAT pension.Stop expecting cash strapped taxpayers to fund your early retirement while you probably take another job on. If you don't like it LEAVE. Keva68
  • Score: -2

8:22am Mon 14 Jul 14

mikeashworth says...

the leader of the council, barrie gruneweld, supports this action yet they have decided they wont settle the equal pay claim thats been rolling on for years despite a court ordering them to do so.

the weird thing is that if the working conditions etc are so bad why has absenteeism at st helens council fallen not risen in last 12 months. it's usually a key indicator that staff are stretched, upset, angry.
the leader of the council, barrie gruneweld, supports this action yet they have decided they wont settle the equal pay claim thats been rolling on for years despite a court ordering them to do so. the weird thing is that if the working conditions etc are so bad why has absenteeism at st helens council fallen not risen in last 12 months. it's usually a key indicator that staff are stretched, upset, angry. mikeashworth
  • Score: 0

8:56am Mon 14 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

mikeashworth wrote:
the leader of the council, barrie gruneweld, supports this action yet they have decided they wont settle the equal pay claim thats been rolling on for years despite a court ordering them to do so.

the weird thing is that if the working conditions etc are so bad why has absenteeism at st helens council fallen not risen in last 12 months. it's usually a key indicator that staff are stretched, upset, angry.
Mike it is still subject to a legal ruling/challenge which I am told is imminent. AND for those who raised the £90m reserves, if lost, where most of this will go. Sankey you have your answer. I told you I would find out. So the Council are not just sitting on it as they are being prudent if things go pear-shaped (for them)!
It will still not stop people having a go at the Council.
As to people getting a good pension I thought it was Labour that was claimed to be the party of envy. So Keva you have put this slur to rest. Incidentally all public sector workers (teachers I can only speak with certainty) have had their contributions increased for less benefits-hence the strikes.
[quote][p][bold]mikeashworth[/bold] wrote: the leader of the council, barrie gruneweld, supports this action yet they have decided they wont settle the equal pay claim thats been rolling on for years despite a court ordering them to do so. the weird thing is that if the working conditions etc are so bad why has absenteeism at st helens council fallen not risen in last 12 months. it's usually a key indicator that staff are stretched, upset, angry.[/p][/quote]Mike it is still subject to a legal ruling/challenge which I am told is imminent. AND for those who raised the £90m reserves, if lost, where most of this will go. Sankey you have your answer. I told you I would find out. So the Council are not just sitting on it as they are being prudent if things go pear-shaped (for them)! It will still not stop people having a go at the Council. As to people getting a good pension I thought it was Labour that was claimed to be the party of envy. So Keva you have put this slur to rest. Incidentally all public sector workers (teachers I can only speak with certainty) have had their contributions increased for less benefits-hence the strikes. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 0

9:49am Mon 14 Jul 14

barrie timpson says...

Can we get that in writing Bill?
Can we get that in writing Bill? barrie timpson
  • Score: -1

10:29am Mon 14 Jul 14

Hughwithaview says...

mikeashworth wrote:
the leader of the council, barrie gruneweld, supports this action yet they have decided they wont settle the equal pay claim thats been rolling on for years despite a court ordering them to do so.

the weird thing is that if the working conditions etc are so bad why has absenteeism at st helens council fallen not risen in last 12 months. it's usually a key indicator that staff are stretched, upset, angry.
Absenteeism has probably declined because staff are too scared to be off sick these days even when they are genuinely suffering an illness be it physical or mental. This socialist, caring Council has a very tough approach - it's Doctor can over rule your own GP, so it's a case of get back to work whether you are fit or not or get a formal warning on your record.
[quote][p][bold]mikeashworth[/bold] wrote: the leader of the council, barrie gruneweld, supports this action yet they have decided they wont settle the equal pay claim thats been rolling on for years despite a court ordering them to do so. the weird thing is that if the working conditions etc are so bad why has absenteeism at st helens council fallen not risen in last 12 months. it's usually a key indicator that staff are stretched, upset, angry.[/p][/quote]Absenteeism has probably declined because staff are too scared to be off sick these days even when they are genuinely suffering an illness be it physical or mental. This socialist, caring Council has a very tough approach - it's Doctor can over rule your own GP, so it's a case of get back to work whether you are fit or not or get a formal warning on your record. Hughwithaview
  • Score: 2

11:27am Mon 14 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

barrie timpson wrote:
Can we get that in writing Bill?
I did!
[quote][p][bold]barrie timpson[/bold] wrote: Can we get that in writing Bill?[/p][/quote]I did! Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 1

11:30am Mon 14 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Hugh you are quite right over sickness and how workers are forced back to work or face the sack. I could say more but I would get into trouble. I am never surprised at the machinations of H.R.
Hugh you are quite right over sickness and how workers are forced back to work or face the sack. I could say more but I would get into trouble. I am never surprised at the machinations of H.R. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 2

12:08pm Mon 14 Jul 14

Sankey says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
Hugh you are quite right over sickness and how workers are forced back to work or face the sack. I could say more but I would get into trouble. I am never surprised at the machinations of H.R.
Nonesense it well known pulling a sickie in the public sector is seen as an entitlement and has been for many years. Its shocking the council has to employ its own doctor to control these spanish practices which has gone on for decades. The people being cheated are not the council but the public who pay their wages to receive a service. Its no better than theft and all the more so as councils budgets are squeezed. Many will bleat about reductions in funding from central govenment how can more funding be given when this sort of thing is going on?
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: Hugh you are quite right over sickness and how workers are forced back to work or face the sack. I could say more but I would get into trouble. I am never surprised at the machinations of H.R.[/p][/quote]Nonesense it well known pulling a sickie in the public sector is seen as an entitlement and has been for many years. Its shocking the council has to employ its own doctor to control these spanish practices which has gone on for decades. The people being cheated are not the council but the public who pay their wages to receive a service. Its no better than theft and all the more so as councils budgets are squeezed. Many will bleat about reductions in funding from central govenment how can more funding be given when this sort of thing is going on? Sankey
  • Score: -2

12:52pm Mon 14 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Sankey once again you lump all sickness absence as "doing a sickie" which according to you does not happen in the private sector. Spanish practices? You are living in the past when they did happen-no more. I bet you stick pins in dolls of public sector workers before you go to bed at night.
Sankey once again you lump all sickness absence as "doing a sickie" which according to you does not happen in the private sector. Spanish practices? You are living in the past when they did happen-no more. I bet you stick pins in dolls of public sector workers before you go to bed at night. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 4

1:28pm Mon 14 Jul 14

Hughwithaview says...

Sankey wrote:
Bill Bradbury wrote:
Hugh you are quite right over sickness and how workers are forced back to work or face the sack. I could say more but I would get into trouble. I am never surprised at the machinations of H.R.
Nonesense it well known pulling a sickie in the public sector is seen as an entitlement and has been for many years. Its shocking the council has to employ its own doctor to control these spanish practices which has gone on for decades. The people being cheated are not the council but the public who pay their wages to receive a service. Its no better than theft and all the more so as councils budgets are squeezed. Many will bleat about reductions in funding from central govenment how can more funding be given when this sort of thing is going on?
Good grief Sankey - you have actually made me agree with Bill Bradbury!!

I do not know which age you are living in but in case you did not know, Charles Dickens is dead!

Back in the day there probably was a practice of taking sick days particularly on Fridays and Mondays and I have no doubt that this happened in the private sector too. However, I can assure you that sickness absence is treated very differently now.

I too cannot say to much about it but what I will say is, the ones who attempt to play the system and and those with genuine illnesses are all treated the same - with contempt. Whatever your own GP or Consultant etc says, however sick you are is irrelevant - HR will badger the living daylights out of you to get you back into work whether you are fit or not.

I have to say that the sickness policy was introduced with the agreement of the Unions so shame on them too. Anyone who thinks the public sector have it cushy when it comes to health and wellbeing is sadly mistaken.
[quote][p][bold]Sankey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: Hugh you are quite right over sickness and how workers are forced back to work or face the sack. I could say more but I would get into trouble. I am never surprised at the machinations of H.R.[/p][/quote]Nonesense it well known pulling a sickie in the public sector is seen as an entitlement and has been for many years. Its shocking the council has to employ its own doctor to control these spanish practices which has gone on for decades. The people being cheated are not the council but the public who pay their wages to receive a service. Its no better than theft and all the more so as councils budgets are squeezed. Many will bleat about reductions in funding from central govenment how can more funding be given when this sort of thing is going on?[/p][/quote]Good grief Sankey - you have actually made me agree with Bill Bradbury!! I do not know which age you are living in but in case you did not know, Charles Dickens is dead! Back in the day there probably was a practice of taking sick days particularly on Fridays and Mondays and I have no doubt that this happened in the private sector too. However, I can assure you that sickness absence is treated very differently now. I too cannot say to much about it but what I will say is, the ones who attempt to play the system and and those with genuine illnesses are all treated the same - with contempt. Whatever your own GP or Consultant etc says, however sick you are is irrelevant - HR will badger the living daylights out of you to get you back into work whether you are fit or not. I have to say that the sickness policy was introduced with the agreement of the Unions so shame on them too. Anyone who thinks the public sector have it cushy when it comes to health and wellbeing is sadly mistaken. Hughwithaview
  • Score: 4

1:44pm Mon 14 Jul 14

barrie timpson says...

I don't believe that back pay to wrongly paid workers will amount to 90 million pounds.

More like 90 quid.
I don't believe that back pay to wrongly paid workers will amount to 90 million pounds. More like 90 quid. barrie timpson
  • Score: 27

7:19pm Mon 14 Jul 14

keepitreel says...

i have a close family friend who works for the NHS,they are on over 40k a year and a few years ago had 6 months off with stress on FULL pay,then a month on 3/4 pay before going back to work for 3 days a week to get used to working again again on full wage for a further 3 months,they have been early retirement and they have the union negotiating a final package with the proviso they can have their job back as a freelance on a better rate than they get now,and the cheeky sods have the front to strike,
i have a close family friend who works for the NHS,they are on over 40k a year and a few years ago had 6 months off with stress on FULL pay,then a month on 3/4 pay before going back to work for 3 days a week to get used to working again again on full wage for a further 3 months,they have been early retirement and they have the union negotiating a final package with the proviso they can have their job back as a freelance on a better rate than they get now,and the cheeky sods have the front to strike, keepitreel
  • Score: -3

11:33pm Mon 14 Jul 14

jumperr says...

What's with the teachers training day I thought the idea of university was for that, I have heard they do a bit of shopping?
What's with the teachers training day I thought the idea of university was for that, I have heard they do a bit of shopping? jumperr
  • Score: 0

7:58am Tue 15 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

jumperr wrote:
What's with the teachers training day I thought the idea of university was for that, I have heard they do a bit of shopping?
Not training days but "Baker days" to remind teachers he was the Tory that took 5 days of our holidays off us to "Train". The legislation which I had to constantly remind Headteachers said "up to 5 days"
Oh dear by bringing that up will have Sankey spluttering into his cornflakes as yet another example of how cushy teachers are with massive pensions.
Incidentally to confirm his view today's Times says pensions are now outstripping wages!! Don't worry Sankey the next Tory Government will address this anomaly by a more stringent "Pension Tax" over and above on what we are already taxed.
[quote][p][bold]jumperr[/bold] wrote: What's with the teachers training day I thought the idea of university was for that, I have heard they do a bit of shopping?[/p][/quote]Not training days but "Baker days" to remind teachers he was the Tory that took 5 days of our holidays off us to "Train". The legislation which I had to constantly remind Headteachers said "up to 5 days" Oh dear by bringing that up will have Sankey spluttering into his cornflakes as yet another example of how cushy teachers are with massive pensions. Incidentally to confirm his view today's Times says pensions are now outstripping wages!! Don't worry Sankey the next Tory Government will address this anomaly by a more stringent "Pension Tax" over and above on what we are already taxed. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 2

10:44am Tue 15 Jul 14

Sankey says...

keepitreel wrote:
i have a close family friend who works for the NHS,they are on over 40k a year and a few years ago had 6 months off with stress on FULL pay,then a month on 3/4 pay before going back to work for 3 days a week to get used to working again again on full wage for a further 3 months,they have been early retirement and they have the union negotiating a final package with the proviso they can have their job back as a freelance on a better rate than they get now,and the cheeky sods have the front to strike,
Double dipping commonplace in the public sector get a big pay-off and a pension in your mif fifties and then resume work. People angle for them its the norm and who can blame them ? I would do the same in their shoes. But its hugely expensive and the cost is met by us as the money comes out of front line services to pay for this cash bonanza. There is much talk about bankers but at least with bankers they have to perform and they can be and are sacked for not doing. In the public sector at the bottom its low paid and tough but rise through the ranks and you have basically won the lottery and heres the good bit.... you dont have to work hard in fact the worse you perform the better it is.
[quote][p][bold]keepitreel[/bold] wrote: i have a close family friend who works for the NHS,they are on over 40k a year and a few years ago had 6 months off with stress on FULL pay,then a month on 3/4 pay before going back to work for 3 days a week to get used to working again again on full wage for a further 3 months,they have been early retirement and they have the union negotiating a final package with the proviso they can have their job back as a freelance on a better rate than they get now,and the cheeky sods have the front to strike,[/p][/quote]Double dipping commonplace in the public sector get a big pay-off and a pension in your mif fifties and then resume work. People angle for them its the norm and who can blame them ? I would do the same in their shoes. But its hugely expensive and the cost is met by us as the money comes out of front line services to pay for this cash bonanza. There is much talk about bankers but at least with bankers they have to perform and they can be and are sacked for not doing. In the public sector at the bottom its low paid and tough but rise through the ranks and you have basically won the lottery and heres the good bit.... you dont have to work hard in fact the worse you perform the better it is. Sankey
  • Score: -1

1:24pm Tue 15 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Sankey bankers sacked?? The one's I read about go with a few £m goodbye behind them. Although it does not chime in with your political thinking the economic mess was caused by the collapse of Banks and their work in the "market" and venture capitalism--money that does not exist.
Sankey bankers sacked?? The one's I read about go with a few £m goodbye behind them. Although it does not chime in with your political thinking the economic mess was caused by the collapse of Banks and their work in the "market" and venture capitalism--money that does not exist. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 2

1:44pm Tue 15 Jul 14

keepitreel says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
Sankey bankers sacked?? The one's I read about go with a few £m goodbye behind them. Although it does not chime in with your political thinking the economic mess was caused by the collapse of Banks and their work in the "market" and venture capitalism--money that does not exist.
partly due to the banks BILL i think you meant to say,but also for the government of the day not having stronger regulations because they were scared of them moving away from LONDON,the ease at which someone on on a low wage could get a 200% mortgage or a loan in 5 mins to buy a £30k plus car even though they only earned £12k a year,wasnt it BROWN who sold the gold reserves so this country didnt have anything to buffer the effects.
Every one who was greedy and thought it was their god given right to have the semi with a flash motor on the drive when they could not afford them,the government for not stopping the practice when it started handing out money to those who could never pay it back,and the banks who unchecked did what the liked,isnt that what you meant to say.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: Sankey bankers sacked?? The one's I read about go with a few £m goodbye behind them. Although it does not chime in with your political thinking the economic mess was caused by the collapse of Banks and their work in the "market" and venture capitalism--money that does not exist.[/p][/quote]partly due to the banks BILL i think you meant to say,but also for the government of the day not having stronger regulations because they were scared of them moving away from LONDON,the ease at which someone on on a low wage could get a 200% mortgage or a loan in 5 mins to buy a £30k plus car even though they only earned £12k a year,wasnt it BROWN who sold the gold reserves so this country didnt have anything to buffer the effects. Every one who was greedy and thought it was their god given right to have the semi with a flash motor on the drive when they could not afford them,the government for not stopping the practice when it started handing out money to those who could never pay it back,and the banks who unchecked did what the liked,isnt that what you meant to say. keepitreel
  • Score: -1

1:56pm Tue 15 Jul 14

Sankey says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
Sankey bankers sacked?? The one's I read about go with a few £m goodbye behind them. Although it does not chime in with your political thinking the economic mess was caused by the collapse of Banks and their work in the "market" and venture capitalism--money that does not exist.
The ones you read about are the chief executives which make the national press I am talking of middle to senior management where in a bank if you don't perform to a very high standard you are dismissed. No such rules in councils and the civil service, I was reading in last weeks strike one in five never turned in to work and the civil service never even missed them the departments carried on as normal. As for economic crisis it was caused by too much government borrowing and letting the money supply overheat the economy which collapsed. The chancellor controls the treasury bill, whom control the Bank of England whom control the clearing banks. Hence blame should rightly be placed on the chancellor responsible mr brown who is pretty much credited with it now other than with labour followers who are always strangers to economic reality it's not what the Labour Party does never has been never will be.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: Sankey bankers sacked?? The one's I read about go with a few £m goodbye behind them. Although it does not chime in with your political thinking the economic mess was caused by the collapse of Banks and their work in the "market" and venture capitalism--money that does not exist.[/p][/quote]The ones you read about are the chief executives which make the national press I am talking of middle to senior management where in a bank if you don't perform to a very high standard you are dismissed. No such rules in councils and the civil service, I was reading in last weeks strike one in five never turned in to work and the civil service never even missed them the departments carried on as normal. As for economic crisis it was caused by too much government borrowing and letting the money supply overheat the economy which collapsed. The chancellor controls the treasury bill, whom control the Bank of England whom control the clearing banks. Hence blame should rightly be placed on the chancellor responsible mr brown who is pretty much credited with it now other than with labour followers who are always strangers to economic reality it's not what the Labour Party does never has been never will be. Sankey
  • Score: -1

2:02pm Tue 15 Jul 14

Sankey says...

I remember a colleague at the height of the labour credit spree madness he bought a terraced house for £100k borrowed on the mortgage a further £50k for renovating the house and furniture plus a new car. His logic was in a few years the house will be worth £150k.

He was wrong.

He should never have been allowed a mortgage ultimately it was the labour government controlling that via the money supply. Who suffered as always their own people the low paid.

A disagrace of a political party
I remember a colleague at the height of the labour credit spree madness he bought a terraced house for £100k borrowed on the mortgage a further £50k for renovating the house and furniture plus a new car. His logic was in a few years the house will be worth £150k. He was wrong. He should never have been allowed a mortgage ultimately it was the labour government controlling that via the money supply. Who suffered as always their own people the low paid. A disagrace of a political party Sankey
  • Score: -1

3:18pm Tue 15 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

Well you have got your wish. Young (and older) cannot get a mortgage unless they earn a certain figure. I never had you down as Orwellian, total control freak.
Well you have got your wish. Young (and older) cannot get a mortgage unless they earn a certain figure. I never had you down as Orwellian, total control freak. Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 1

5:40pm Tue 15 Jul 14

jumperr says...

That what has been happening for many a yr some jobs couldn't support cars and mortgages but completely irresponsible lending, "knowing what they were doing"created boom and bust
That what has been happening for many a yr some jobs couldn't support cars and mortgages but completely irresponsible lending, "knowing what they were doing"created boom and bust jumperr
  • Score: 0

5:59pm Tue 15 Jul 14

Sankey says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
Well you have got your wish. Young (and older) cannot get a mortgage unless they earn a certain figure. I never had you down as Orwellian, total control freak.
There is nothing compassionate about loaning people money they have no hope of ever paying back which was happening in the disastrous years of brown and Blair.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: Well you have got your wish. Young (and older) cannot get a mortgage unless they earn a certain figure. I never had you down as Orwellian, total control freak.[/p][/quote]There is nothing compassionate about loaning people money they have no hope of ever paying back which was happening in the disastrous years of brown and Blair. Sankey
  • Score: -1

5:59pm Tue 15 Jul 14

Sankey says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
Well you have got your wish. Young (and older) cannot get a mortgage unless they earn a certain figure. I never had you down as Orwellian, total control freak.
There is nothing compassionate about loaning people money they have no hope of ever paying back which was happening in the disastrous years of brown and Blair.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: Well you have got your wish. Young (and older) cannot get a mortgage unless they earn a certain figure. I never had you down as Orwellian, total control freak.[/p][/quote]There is nothing compassionate about loaning people money they have no hope of ever paying back which was happening in the disastrous years of brown and Blair. Sankey
  • Score: -3

5:59pm Tue 15 Jul 14

Sankey says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
Well you have got your wish. Young (and older) cannot get a mortgage unless they earn a certain figure. I never had you down as Orwellian, total control freak.
There is nothing compassionate about loaning people money they have no hope of ever paying back which was happening in the disastrous years of brown and Blair.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: Well you have got your wish. Young (and older) cannot get a mortgage unless they earn a certain figure. I never had you down as Orwellian, total control freak.[/p][/quote]There is nothing compassionate about loaning people money they have no hope of ever paying back which was happening in the disastrous years of brown and Blair. Sankey
  • Score: 0

9:29am Wed 16 Jul 14

Bill Bradbury says...

At least the odious Gove has been removed (temporarily) until they get re-elected then he will be back with a vengeance. An Education Minister with no Cabinet experience whose knowledge is that she has been to school. No wonder Education is in a mess.
Cameron is after the teacher vote if the Francis Urquhart chief whip Gove allows him to remain? To misquote House of Cards, "I can say that,- you cannot possible comment".
At least the odious Gove has been removed (temporarily) until they get re-elected then he will be back with a vengeance. An Education Minister with no Cabinet experience whose knowledge is that she has been to school. No wonder Education is in a mess. Cameron is after the teacher vote if the Francis Urquhart chief whip Gove allows him to remain? To misquote House of Cards, "I can say that,- you cannot possible comment". Bill Bradbury
  • Score: 0

10:34am Wed 16 Jul 14

Sankey says...

Bill Bradbury wrote:
At least the odious Gove has been removed (temporarily) until they get re-elected then he will be back with a vengeance. An Education Minister with no Cabinet experience whose knowledge is that she has been to school. No wonder Education is in a mess.
Cameron is after the teacher vote if the Francis Urquhart chief whip Gove allows him to remain? To misquote House of Cards, "I can say that,- you cannot possible comment".
Education is in a mess because of the teaching unions its been in a mess for at least 30 years well before Gove came around. I am disappointed Gove has been moved you can tell he was doing a great job by who was moaning. The same people who have wrecked childrens education for their own ends militant teachers and the unions.
[quote][p][bold]Bill Bradbury[/bold] wrote: At least the odious Gove has been removed (temporarily) until they get re-elected then he will be back with a vengeance. An Education Minister with no Cabinet experience whose knowledge is that she has been to school. No wonder Education is in a mess. Cameron is after the teacher vote if the Francis Urquhart chief whip Gove allows him to remain? To misquote House of Cards, "I can say that,- you cannot possible comment".[/p][/quote]Education is in a mess because of the teaching unions its been in a mess for at least 30 years well before Gove came around. I am disappointed Gove has been moved you can tell he was doing a great job by who was moaning. The same people who have wrecked childrens education for their own ends militant teachers and the unions. Sankey
  • Score: -1
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