Swimmers' fury as council votes through Sutton pool closure (From St Helens Star)
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Swimmers' fury as council votes through Sutton pool closure
6:14pm Wednesday 9th January 2013 in News
Sutton swimming pool will be mothballed following the council's decision, which will save £180,000 a year
FURIOUS swimmers stormed out of a council cabinet meeting tonight after senior politicians went against public opinion and voted through plans to shut the pool at Sutton Leisure Centre.
Officers at St Helens Council recommended closing the pool to save funds and the local authority’s cabinet members unanimously approved the proposals, which would save £180,000 a year.
Swimming enthusiasts, who were strongly against the closure, gathered at the meeting, which was held in public at St Helens Town Hall.
But they left angrily after being unable to ask questions or voice their opinions.
Legally, members of the public can attend hearings but they are not allowed to speak to councillors or officers.
The decision was taken to “close and mothball” the pool. There is thought to be little likelihood of the pool reopening in the near future.
With the council having suffered a £36m cut in funding until 2012/2013 – with a further £14m to be slashed in coming years, leading politicians say painful choices had to be made.
But it was against public opinion.
Ninety eight per cent of the 163 people who responded individually to the council’s public consultation were against the pool being shutdown.
A petition of 1,142 names objecting to the proposals was also submitted.
Agenda papers at tonight’s cabinet meeting stated: “It is understandable that customers are opposed to the closure of a local facility, however this decision is not simply whether the swimming facility should remain open or close it relates to the council having to mitigate the impacts of the financial cuts that are being imposed on it by central government.”
Opening hours at Sutton Leisure Centre are also set to reduced, meaning it will operate only on weekdays between 4pm and 10pm.
Full report to follow on Thursday
Comments(136)
eddyspan
says...
8:27pm Wed 9 Jan 13
Villordsutch
says...
8:48pm Wed 9 Jan 13
tina299
says...
8:48pm Wed 9 Jan 13
I fully understand that they need to make cuts but why get rid of a facility that helps people keep fit, is a social place, provides jobs etc?
Sankey
says...
9:16pm Wed 9 Jan 13
WE EXPECT TOUGH UNPOPULAR DECISIONS IN THESE TIMES BUT WE ALSO EXPECT HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY.
Sankey
says...
9:30pm Wed 9 Jan 13
anthonywilson
says...
9:30pm Wed 9 Jan 13
Sankey wrote:Indeed.
No swimming pools or libraries should close while st helens pays its executives huge salaries and cuts back not a one of them and the council has reserves of over £200m on its balance sheet £120m in liquid assets. Yet they sit on all that money and pay themselves salaries a prime minister would earn. But Rimmer was voted in with a landslide. CHECK THE FACTS LOOK AT ST HELENS COUNCIL ACCOUNTS 2012 LOOK AT PAGE 42. SEE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THIS CRUMMY COUNCIL AND ITS LEADERSHIP TEAM ARE UP TO.
WE EXPECT TOUGH UNPOPULAR DECISIONS IN THESE TIMES BUT WE ALSO EXPECT HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY.
A quick look shows £122m in liquid reserves. I look forward to any explanations concerning this with interest.
Sankey
says...
9:31pm Wed 9 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
9:33pm Wed 9 Jan 13
Vomitlord
says...
6:27am Thu 10 Jan 13
And Justice For All
says...
8:18am Thu 10 Jan 13
suttonboy
says...
9:00am Thu 10 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
9:27am Thu 10 Jan 13
Sankey wrote:Sankey, I have tried to type in the www. address you gave on the accounts but keep getting File error or it may have been withdrawn-surely not?
No swimming pools or libraries should close while st helens pays its executives huge salaries and cuts back not a one of them and the council has reserves of over £200m on its balance sheet £120m in liquid assets. Yet they sit on all that money and pay themselves salaries a prime minister would earn. But Rimmer was voted in with a landslide. CHECK THE FACTS LOOK AT ST HELENS COUNCIL ACCOUNTS 2012 LOOK AT PAGE 42. SEE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THIS CRUMMY COUNCIL AND ITS LEADERSHIP TEAM ARE UP TO. WE EXPECT TOUGH UNPOPULAR DECISIONS IN THESE TIMES BUT WE ALSO EXPECT HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY.
I wonder if the result is that the Council does not own the school anymore now run by the college and Edge Hill I think?
As I wrote before we need to see how "liquid" some of these assets are and whether they can be sold or worth anything as all businesses have such assets which are gradually written off with depreciation. All Councils have investments in banks etc. for you may recall those Councils who stupidly got tied up with the Icelandic Banks.
As I am indicating it is a financial decision beyond "our Ken" whether a Council "realises" such assets for as I wrote earlier once spent then no safety net. Cllrs. have difficult decisions to make (I am trying to address the balance in this thread) and are always open to criticism when their allowances and the cost of highly paid officers salaries are thrown at them. I note there was some discussion today on the Today BBC4 programme on Cllr's allowances.
Still we Cllrs. ( I am a Parish Cllr and who don't get paid) have to suffer the slings and arrows from the public but I do sympathise with all those who bothered to turn up at the meeting, but as I also write, people ought to be reminded from where these cuts are coming-the cuts in Government support for Councils in their Privatisation scheme to get things run by non elected people i.e. volunteers who cost nothing or by "rip-off" merchants like Crapita and Group 4 who "trouser" generous Government grants running prisons etc. with minimal staff.
It's a mess and so is politics but we fight on. It looks as though the Council is in for a hiding!!??
keepitreel
says...
9:56am Thu 10 Jan 13
malann
says...
11:26am Thu 10 Jan 13
Erics_protege
says...
11:39am Thu 10 Jan 13
Is this a mis-type?
If not, then it suggests that the centre will be closed at weekends. I picked someone up from there last Sunday and the wasn't a single space free!
There a loads of football teams, judo clubs and athletics groups that use the centre at weekend. Surely they aren't closing it to them?
I suspect it should read that on weekdays it will only open from 4pm to 10pm?
Erics_protege
says...
11:40am Thu 10 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
11:43am Thu 10 Jan 13
oldlancashire
says...
12:15pm Thu 10 Jan 13
anthonywilson
says...
12:19pm Thu 10 Jan 13
Erics_protege wrote:Hello Eric's protege.
Opening hours at Sutton Leisure Centre are also set to reduced, meaning it will operate only on weekdays between 4pm and 10pm.
Is this a mis-type?
If not, then it suggests that the centre will be closed at weekends. I picked someone up from there last Sunday and the wasn't a single space free!
There a loads of football teams, judo clubs and athletics groups that use the centre at weekend. Surely they aren't closing it to them?
I suspect it should read that on weekdays it will only open from 4pm to 10pm?
Its not a typing error I can assure you. The report submitted to the Council in advance of the cabinet meeting states that the Centre will only be open from 4pm to 10pm. The report can be downloaded here: http://moderngov.sth
elens.gov.uk/documen
ts/s21138/Closure%20
of%20Sutton%20Leisur
e.pdf
Point 2.7 of the report states and I quote:
"The closure of the swimming pool would allow for new opening hours for public use of the remaining facilities, of Monday to Friday 4pm to 10pm and only on weekends as required to accommodate any events. This would significantly reduce the staffing requirements for the center as well as reduce the operational costs. Details of the final staffing structure will be subject to full consultation with the staff and unions and will then be subject to a Delegated Executive Decision. The revised staffing structure will provide the appropriate level of supervision for the site. It is important that the staffing levels ensure that the Centre can continue to provide a high level of customer care but this must be balanced against what is required for a Centre that is only open 30 hours a week (plus any weekend events).
I take this that it won't be open at weekends. The Star has kindly published my letter that I sent in last week about it.
SKAOBO
says...
2:17pm Thu 10 Jan 13
Erics_protege
says...
2:46pm Thu 10 Jan 13
If it is true then it's a sneaky little addition and wasn't part of the consultation. Is that legit?
Does anyone know?
moonman77
says...
2:54pm Thu 10 Jan 13
keepitreel
says...
3:27pm Thu 10 Jan 13
anthonywilson
says...
3:37pm Thu 10 Jan 13
Erics_protege wrote:The honest answer from me is "I don't know."
Anthonywilson - the weekend issue only comes up as a point in the document, it wasn't part of the proposal at the top so how does that become part of the decision? Any ideas???
If it is true then it's a sneaky little addition and wasn't part of the consultation. Is that legit?
Does anyone know?
What I do know is that the Council consultation made no reference to a proposal to close the Leisure centre at weekends (I wasn't at the Cabinet meeting) but it does appear that this will be the case based on the way in which the Star article above has reported it. Perhaps those who managed to attend could enlighten us further and confirm?
I do know that poor consultations in the past could be challenged by a judicial review process although I'm not sure if its possible nowadays due to legislative changes. My complaint is the lack of full honesty in not orginally stating that a change in operating hours for the whole centre were part of the plans as is closure at weekends which appears to now be the pipeline following the cabinet meeting.
anthonywilson
says...
3:58pm Thu 10 Jan 13
moonman77 wrote:Its a bit more than a 25 minute walk from Clock Face or Sutton Manor to Queens Park Leisure Centre or Parr.
Perhaps they could reduce obesity now by doing what we did years ago, walk to their nearest baths. Its sad that this facility has shut but goodness me we have others in the town. You lot are sounding like this is the only pool for a hundred miles away. It’s not its only 2.5 miles away! Twenty-five minutes brisk walk. Stop moaning, we are in times of austerity. Things have to change.
The distance isn't really relevant. Failing to be upfront and honest with local people about the real situation is.
Why is it always Sutton which seems to be the brunt of cuts and not other areas of the borough? (Two libraries a community centre axed previously in the last fifteen years in Sutton) and now the leisure centre to be a part-time one with no swimming pool. Perhaps residents in Sutton should be asking for a Council tax rebate?
Why is the Council simply not up front with people about the cuts they are having to make when it also appears that the money held in reserve is in a realtively healthier position than were often led to believe. We all know that Councils everywhere are being subject to a reduced Central Government settlement and decisions are not easy but if they explained things a little better with more honesty they perhaps wouldnt get the amount of flack which they will do over this decision.
Another point Moonman77 is that money was recently spent on refurbishment work at Parr swimming pool to create a new learner pool. Not so long ago considerable investment was made in extending and upgrading the sports facilties at Parr (in recent years this included new changing facilities and a new Gym). How much has been spent on upgrading and improving Sutton or are they simply the poor and forgotten relations of the Borough?
PM
says...
5:35pm Thu 10 Jan 13
PM
says...
5:38pm Thu 10 Jan 13
Villordsutch wrote:Really? If the entire population of St Helens were active swimmers who used the facilities on offer you may have a point , but they aren't and they dont. My only criticism of this decision was the farcical 'consultation' when the decision to close the pool had already been made. Have the guts to be up front about the situation.
We build a new McDonalds and close a Swimming Baths...Welcome to St Helens! Better get that Cardiac Unit built sharpish!
PM
says...
5:41pm Thu 10 Jan 13
Sankey wrote:Can you give examples of other councils that have done as you suggest without any cuts to leisure facilities?
No swimming pools or libraries should close while st helens pays its executives huge salaries and cuts back not a one of them and the council has reserves of over £200m on its balance sheet £120m in liquid assets. Yet they sit on all that money and pay themselves salaries a prime minister would earn. But Rimmer was voted in with a landslide. CHECK THE FACTS LOOK AT ST HELENS COUNCIL ACCOUNTS 2012 LOOK AT PAGE 42. SEE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THIS CRUMMY COUNCIL AND ITS LEADERSHIP TEAM ARE UP TO. WE EXPECT TOUGH UNPOPULAR DECISIONS IN THESE TIMES BUT WE ALSO EXPECT HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY.
Sankey
says...
6:34pm Thu 10 Jan 13
Can I ask whose side you are on? the public and the vulnerable or the labour town hall cronies?
pitbullboxing
says...
8:31pm Thu 10 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
9:21pm Thu 10 Jan 13
As I suspected much of the assets cannot be touched as investments which we both know if we foreclosed on ours we would lose a lot of cash. All LA's have this sort of portfolio and rarely come into the figure when we look at what a Council can spend from a Government grant/settlement.
How much the Council can draw on what it calls its "usuable reserves" we would need to ask (I will) As they mature I suspect they will be used.
Schools balances in excess of £8.1m has been a contentious issue for the 40 years I was representing trade unions and always the excuse is that they arefor future projects etc but always stay around the same. From time to time the Council tries to claw some back but then give up!
Incidentally I was incorrect the pool has no connection to Sutton Academy who purchases time from the body that owns it.
In our days we only had one pool Boundary Road Baths which remember closed for winter when we could see the delights of The Count Bartelli, the Masked Crusader and such other wrestling delights. So with better transport facilities Parr and pools in other areas/gyms/pools will have to suffice.
I wonder how many libraries will go and other cuts? Who would be a Cllr. these days.
jumper
says...
9:46pm Thu 10 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
9:59pm Thu 10 Jan 13
janet c
says...
10:06pm Thu 10 Jan 13
chasmcn
says...
10:31pm Thu 10 Jan 13
bill iam lead to believe that the school was offered the pool but they did not want to open it to public swimming times they just wanted to use it for the schools own use so the council withdrew the offer
@ janet c being a socialist i would levy a tax on the profits of mcdonalds pizza hut etc to fund swimming pools and council run health centers so people could use them for free ,after all our taxes have to pick up the bill of the crap food they provide affecting our health via the NHS
ps mcdonalds and pepsi were one of the main sponsors of the Olympics
chasmcn
says...
12:30am Fri 11 Jan 13
Sankey wrote:True Trafford are sharing back offices but they still sacked the library staff installing machines to run the library they are still closing 10 children centers ,meals on wheels ,they have one care home left that is too close but the millionaires in trafford( parts of trafford are the richest people in the country) will get their tax cut
No i cant PM because of the laws of mathematics. However i suggest you look at what trafford council have done reducing the back office fat cats and sharing services such as the maximum amount of money goes into public services something st helens might learn from.
Can I ask whose side you are on? the public and the vulnerable or the labour town hall cronies?
Erics_protege
says...
1:15am Fri 11 Jan 13
This closure wasn't part of the consultation and has been sneaked in via the back door. As a result even more staff will probably go. When the centre goes part time it will only be a small step to full closure. The local people and 100Ks of weekend users never had the chance to be consulted.
pitbullboxing
says...
9:28am Fri 11 Jan 13
http://www.taxpayers
alliance.com/economi
cs/2012/04/rich-poor
-middle-pay-lot-tax.
html
mikeperry109
says...
10:48am Fri 11 Jan 13
eddyspan wrote:I think that it is closer to £150,000 - and no, she is not!
What a town! I agree. The green theft continues. It will go in the same bag. If the council want it they can sort it! More leisure facilities closed. Are we aiming to be the unhealthiest town in Britain. Carole Hudson well worth 140k per year.
mikeperry109
says...
10:49am Fri 11 Jan 13
Sankey wrote:Honesty and transparency from this shower, Sankey? You must be joking!
No swimming pools or libraries should close while st helens pays its executives huge salaries and cuts back not a one of them and the council has reserves of over £200m on its balance sheet £120m in liquid assets. Yet they sit on all that money and pay themselves salaries a prime minister would earn. But Rimmer was voted in with a landslide. CHECK THE FACTS LOOK AT ST HELENS COUNCIL ACCOUNTS 2012 LOOK AT PAGE 42. SEE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THIS CRUMMY COUNCIL AND ITS LEADERSHIP TEAM ARE UP TO.
WE EXPECT TOUGH UNPOPULAR DECISIONS IN THESE TIMES BUT WE ALSO EXPECT HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY.
mikeperry109
says...
10:54am Fri 11 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury wrote:Bill, stop apologizing for Rimmer and her lackeys. They are wasting money on a new re-cycling scheme, and blaming any unpopular decisions on the government.
Sankey wrote:Sankey, I have tried to type in the www. address you gave on the accounts but keep getting File error or it may have been withdrawn-surely not?
No swimming pools or libraries should close while st helens pays its executives huge salaries and cuts back not a one of them and the council has reserves of over £200m on its balance sheet £120m in liquid assets. Yet they sit on all that money and pay themselves salaries a prime minister would earn. But Rimmer was voted in with a landslide. CHECK THE FACTS LOOK AT ST HELENS COUNCIL ACCOUNTS 2012 LOOK AT PAGE 42. SEE THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THIS CRUMMY COUNCIL AND ITS LEADERSHIP TEAM ARE UP TO. WE EXPECT TOUGH UNPOPULAR DECISIONS IN THESE TIMES BUT WE ALSO EXPECT HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY.
I wonder if the result is that the Council does not own the school anymore now run by the college and Edge Hill I think?
As I wrote before we need to see how "liquid" some of these assets are and whether they can be sold or worth anything as all businesses have such assets which are gradually written off with depreciation. All Councils have investments in banks etc. for you may recall those Councils who stupidly got tied up with the Icelandic Banks.
As I am indicating it is a financial decision beyond "our Ken" whether a Council "realises" such assets for as I wrote earlier once spent then no safety net. Cllrs. have difficult decisions to make (I am trying to address the balance in this thread) and are always open to criticism when their allowances and the cost of highly paid officers salaries are thrown at them. I note there was some discussion today on the Today BBC4 programme on Cllr's allowances.
Still we Cllrs. ( I am a Parish Cllr and who don't get paid) have to suffer the slings and arrows from the public but I do sympathise with all those who bothered to turn up at the meeting, but as I also write, people ought to be reminded from where these cuts are coming-the cuts in Government support for Councils in their Privatisation scheme to get things run by non elected people i.e. volunteers who cost nothing or by "rip-off" merchants like Crapita and Group 4 who "trouser" generous Government grants running prisons etc. with minimal staff.
It's a mess and so is politics but we fight on. It looks as though the Council is in for a hiding!!??
If this is democracy then heaven help us!
mikeperry109
says...
10:57am Fri 11 Jan 13
Erics_protege wrote:Consultation? This decision was taken months ago, and they care not a jot for what the people of Sutton think. A great example of how not to run a democracy!
Many are still missing a key point.. It isn't just the pool anymore! Its now all services at weekends. This includes football pitches, the only athletics facilty in the borough (Wigan have 2) squash courts and a big sportshall that is always busy with netball / judo /non sports activities.
This closure wasn't part of the consultation and has been sneaked in via the back door. As a result even more staff will probably go. When the centre goes part time it will only be a small step to full closure. The local people and 100Ks of weekend users never had the chance to be consulted.
mikeperry109
says...
11:08am Fri 11 Jan 13
chasmcn wrote:Good point, Chas - did no-one think of asking Macdonalds to sponsor Sutton pool? On the point of millionaires, agree totally, although it is worth remembering that Labour only introduced the 50p tax rate a month before they were kicked out of power! The previous thirteen years were spent kissing millionaire's backsides and rewarding them with undeserved honours!
Sad that the council came to decision i don't agree with it and i dont agree with how the govt distributes my tax in to millionaire pockets and i lose a service in my town.
bill iam lead to believe that the school was offered the pool but they did not want to open it to public swimming times they just wanted to use it for the schools own use so the council withdrew the offer
@ janet c being a socialist i would levy a tax on the profits of mcdonalds pizza hut etc to fund swimming pools and council run health centers so people could use them for free ,after all our taxes have to pick up the bill of the crap food they provide affecting our health via the NHS
ps mcdonalds and pepsi were one of the main sponsors of the Olympics
The coalition, for all its faults, has lifted hundreds of thousands of lower paid workers out of paying income tax altogether - and the 50p rate actually cost the treasury millions in lost revenue.
pitbullboxing
says...
11:11am Fri 11 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
12:48pm Fri 11 Jan 13
Contrast with st helens who leave the executive team intact increase council tax and make concentrated cuts to front line services while making as much noise as possible about it being the coalitions fault.
Why cannot st helens share its central functions with other auhorities? There must be huge duplication and ineffciencies e.g multiple processes and systems. To me its a no brainer and industry has been doing it for years. Of course this will result in the loss of jobs and that is not good I agree. But do we have ineffcient councils wasting money to retain jobs in perpetuity or do we have lean and effcient councils that can charge sensible business rates and keep council tax low so the public has more to spend in the local economy and create new jobs in the local economy and ensure a better long term future rather than just hanging on to a system not fit for purpose. I have still not had an answer why st helens council are sitting on such huge amounts of liquid assets Bill has stated they are for some future contingency but the amounts are excessive and from 2011 when a £50m surplus was made (which is still being held in reserve) this indicates overcharging by the council which they have responded to by increasing the charges yet again while continuing to pocket the £50m windfall. Chas does this really sound like an entity we should continue to dig deep to pay for? If they were more like trafford their position would be more palatable to the council taxpayers. Then we have this situation in sutton which was handled very badly despite a very well paid executive team many on over £100k. It seems there is nothing they can right from the finances, to the structure to day to day operations.
How much longer can this go on?
Bill Bradbury
says...
12:56pm Fri 11 Jan 13
Socialist Party or any other controlling group of a Council cannot ignore year on year cuts which I experienced first hand throughout the 80's.
Someone mentioned the beauties of Trafford the most right-wing authority in closing whatever moves. If anything is to go you could count on the Tories of Trafford being the first. Money is indeed wasted especially on consultants as the re-cyling issue I know very litttle about apart from it having been the flavour of the decade urged on by the Greens. In a broad scheme of things it may make sense but I know little to comment on it. Need to see the figures.
Sankey
says...
1:20pm Fri 11 Jan 13
moonman77
says...
1:45pm Fri 11 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
2:12pm Fri 11 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
2:33pm Fri 11 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
3:03pm Fri 11 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:Of course they woud but we would have kicked started the economy by investing in capital projects. Does it work? Did so in the 30's American depression and I read in the latest "Socialist Economy Bulletin" that China rejected to current Tory approach and in the last 6 months their economy has boomed. (Mike it's your publication. You ought to start believing in your own propoganda).
So Bill - Labour would not have made any cuts?
And don't trot out the Tory Propoganda about deficits. This country since the last World War has lived on bigger deficits than what we have at present. GOVERNMENT BORROWING HAS INCREASED.
By the way the BIG LIE that Cameron trots out at each PM question time about the Private sector increase in jobs is only that his Government has transferred FE jobs into the Private sector.--not new jobs but a consequence of the privatisation by this Tory Govenment. Public secor jobs now in the private sector. The Tory Goebbels Big Lie machine is in full flow swallowed by many on this site.
Sankey
says...
6:03pm Fri 11 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
7:30pm Fri 11 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
7:38pm Fri 11 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
10:36pm Fri 11 Jan 13
Agree with you on Immigration and the Iraq War. Did a lot of damage and lost us a lot of Labour supporters.
As to the Tory claim of 1m private sector jobs they are not new jobs nor new private firms but the privatistion of the public sector. As Sankey agrees pensions need to be reduced to the level of the inadequate Private sector as well as wages. This is our main disagreement between the two of us. I did not spend 40 years fighting for the wages and conditions of workers to see them destroyed by the Tories. This country is heading back to the Victorian Mill-owner mentality so once the unions are smashed which are well on the way at the moment (my information is that the TUC is having internal problems-a story that will break soon) in say another 50 years someone will fight back against worker exploitation.
Workers are afraid of losing their jobs and so we have them working on short term contracts and minimum wages. Use your eyes and ears to see this and not the Tory press. Jessops and Honda workers plus Comet and even every other business under threat has its workers fearful of their jobs.
Still the Politicians are doing OK.
Sankey
says...
12:37am Sat 12 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
10:10am Sat 12 Jan 13
The vast holding by St.Helens is pensions which on the balance sheet is £216,427,000 which we know from your love of the private sector (and which regularly get themselves out of such schemes) as being too costly, that you would be glad to see these trashed along with your penchant for the bosses of private business who are doing the same-the Race to the bottom a phrase the Right wing and yourself do not like as it is so true.
So following your logic St.Helens and all other Local Authorities and public sector workers should have this pension pot raided to make up for the cuts this Tory Government is making and throw in any other funds that can be realised.
Your last posting has at last got to the nub of your dislike of public sector workers. It's their pensions you don't like and I always thought it was the Labour Party who was often accused of being the party of envy.
We are worlds apart. I like to see things improved and you wish them to go the other way to pay off a deficit budget, which has always been with us as I stated above, and the Government waste in procurment-the Military waste this week is eye watering.
We will never agree on this but we at least try to make our points without rancour. It would be a boring world if everyone agreed with me. I like the saying "The world is split into two parts. Those who agree with you and the blind,ignorant prejudiced fools".
Honestly I have not made it up as I thought I must write to Sankey tonorrow on pensions and find you have already done so. Scary!
pitbullboxing
says...
11:24am Sat 12 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
11:32am Sat 12 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
11:48am Sat 12 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:Internet shopping has been blamed for losses eleswhere but Jessops case is the fact that cameras have become obselete due to the excellent quality of mobile phones, i-pads and the like. The footfall into these shops also fell with the absence of printed film.
Bill he is right about internet shopping hitting shops. Also I have to disagree with Parr fitness centre - it did not need another upgrade , it was certainly in better condition than Sutton.
The writing was on the wall when the most successful Kamera Shop in St.helens closed some years ago. Can't compete with discounts offered such as super stores and the like.
Buying of cameras one has to have hands on and comparing each model, not what you can do on the internet. It's a Pity for Jessops offered a lot of good advice which will now be lost.
chasmcn
says...
5:20pm Sat 12 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:Thanks PIT for the link i know all about the TPA i read their web site for a laugh ,i am sure they would be pleased at what St Helens council is doing as they abore anything to do with a local authority were a service that is not self supporting the TPA do not believe tax payers money should be used to subsidies that service ie swimming pools
Read this chas.
http://www.taxpayers
alliance.com/economi
cs/2012/04/rich-poor
-middle-pay-lot-tax.
html
Can you tell me Pit who funds the TPA they argue for greater transparency from government bodies but they have difficulty with transparency in saying who funds them . Just another arm of the Tory party mate
chasmcn
says...
6:08pm Sat 12 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
6:54pm Sat 12 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
9:26pm Sat 12 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:Not great at all. As people are now waking up examining Tory claims of jobs all on very short term contracts or even turn up and see if they are to be taken on getting back to the old Dock Gate mentality when you took pot luck whether the foreman picked you. As I have written many times we are heading back to Victorian Mill Owner mentality supported by the Tories on this site. As past posts have noted "Burger Flipping" is becoming the main industry in St.helens.
I want one of the jobs Ed is promising - for 6 months...that sounds great.
Sorry I am getting quite bitter on the nature of jobs as I am having personal knowledge how it is affecting people by sickness, depression and having to lay off workers with families and why I get cross when some people who blog here think it's good for the economy. I hear more Pilks jobs are on the line with lines put on soak and work switched probably to Germany and Japan, who own the company.
chasmcn
says...
10:09pm Sat 12 Jan 13
He started work at 10pm with 4 others who were new that night they had a induction then took outside and told to unload 3 big wagon containers and store in a warehouse which by 12.30 am they had done .
the supervisor came round and told them to go home end of his job a total of 2 1/2 hours at £4.98 a hour for night work so a princely sum of £12.45 ,his work boots cost more then that which his farther paid for in the day
welcome to the future people WAKE UP
chasmcn
says...
10:25pm Sat 12 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:Its easy to disclaim the tory lie PIT if we are employing more there should be a increase in tax being paid into the to treasury so they do not have to borrow more .As we have seen from the govts own figures they are having to borrow more becasue the jobs are either zero contract or part time hardly any full time jobs.
I think your wrong about the Tory big lie Bill. Not that they are using propaganda - all parties do that - but rather about people buying into it. Most folk are clever enough to use their own minds. I think socialism is just not a popular choice amongst people any-more. Or not as popular as it was. The real damage was done by the amount of immigration and the Iraq war.
Osborne as not created a single bit of growth in the ecomony in the 2 1/2 years he as been in power he will be the first ever chancellor to take us into a triple recession
smith&weston
says...
10:26am Sun 13 Jan 13
chasmcn wrote:Bog standard manual labour... what was he expecting... £100 and a seat on the board ?
Bill you also getting exploitation of people as well by companies .My neighbour his son who is 18 and unemployed went to the job center were he was offered a job .His father took him to interview the same day were he as given a job told to come back at 10pm as he was going to work nights unloading wagons he needed his own safety boots .
He started work at 10pm with 4 others who were new that night they had a induction then took outside and told to unload 3 big wagon containers and store in a warehouse which by 12.30 am they had done .
the supervisor came round and told them to go home end of his job a total of 2 1/2 hours at £4.98 a hour for night work so a princely sum of £12.45 ,his work boots cost more then that which his farther paid for in the day
welcome to the future people WAKE UP
pitbullboxing
says...
11:01am Sun 13 Jan 13
Look at it this way - he has boots for jobs in the future and work experience.
My first job was hard work and low pay , but it did me no harm.
Father doesn't have an "r" in it by the way.
chasmcn
says...
11:23am Sun 13 Jan 13
smith&weston wrote:pitbullboxing says...
chasmcn wrote:Bog standard manual labour... what was he expecting... £100 and a seat on the board ?
Bill you also getting exploitation of people as well by companies .My neighbour his son who is 18 and unemployed went to the job center were he was offered a job .His father took him to interview the same day were he as given a job told to come back at 10pm as he was going to work nights unloading wagons he needed his own safety boots .
He started work at 10pm with 4 others who were new that night they had a induction then took outside and told to unload 3 big wagon containers and store in a warehouse which by 12.30 am they had done .
the supervisor came round and told them to go home end of his job a total of 2 1/2 hours at £4.98 a hour for night work so a princely sum of £12.45 ,his work boots cost more then that which his farther paid for in the day
welcome to the future people WAKE UP
11:01am Sun 13 Jan 13
Don't worry Chas , I know your cross - nobody likes staying in on a Saturday night !!
Look at it this way - he has boots for jobs in the future and work experience.
My first job was hard work and low pay , but it did me no harm.
Father doesn't have an "r" in it by the way.
i see you tories welcome exploitation he was told it was a full time job by the job center he was not expecting the job to last 2 1/2hours nor were the other people who started that night one who had traveled from wigan by bus to st helens and was expecting to get the bus home at the end of the shift at 6 in the morning but being no buses at that time of night he had to walk home .
He was willing to work for £4.98 a hour he turned up he was not expecting £100 a hour just a job crap job at that but at the time was thrilled he had got a job after trying day after day for months,
.
pitbullboxing
says...
11:40am Sun 13 Jan 13
I think you better lay off the citizen Smith videos Chas.
chasmcn
says...
1:11pm Sun 13 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:"power to the people" foxy and its( on about ) not "one" foxy
Why do you keep calling me a Tory? We've been one this before - I have no political preference. Job centre - not center.
I think you better lay off the citizen Smith videos Chas.
pitbullboxing
says...
1:44pm Sun 13 Jan 13
jumper
says...
2:12pm Sun 13 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
3:23pm Sun 13 Jan 13
In church this morning I read a memorial of a Mr. Brown of Wigan who did such things caring fro the poor, providing clothes and food and supporting institutions and who died ealy 19th,Century. It had a familiar ring.
Again Chasman's story is par for the course for some exploiting employers.
We read of tax avoidance schemes the latest supported by Her Majesty's Revenue which to my mind is a rich man's/company of a benefit cheat. Do we see the Government doing much about thes bebefits that apart from making some vocal noises that "they are within the law". Do something about the law we should be saying.
pitbullboxing
says...
3:42pm Sun 13 Jan 13
Jesus - all this tripe because the council are inept.
jumper
says...
3:49pm Sun 13 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
3:56pm Sun 13 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
4:32pm Sun 13 Jan 13
/news/uk-politics-20
996278
This is fair comment from Ed. At least he acknowledges Labour got it wrong on immigration.
Sankey
says...
4:42pm Sun 13 Jan 13
jumper
says...
4:55pm Sun 13 Jan 13
chasmcn
says...
5:11pm Sun 13 Jan 13
Sankey wrote:Sankey it is in both camps so to say the fatcats at the top in the public sector get great pensions while those at the bottom get poor pensions .Equally in the private sector as we see with chairman of British gas getting a 10 million pay off which comes from the consumer you and me have paid for his pension .All politicians have to start listening to the voter not just pay us lip service at every election ,the system is broken all around will someone fix it before its too late no wonder voter apathy is growing
Bill my problem with public sectors pensions is one of fairness. Brown raided the private sector pensions and with that and other things largely are now extinct. At the same time the public sector pensions were left intact save some very small adjustment. The only people in the uk who have any frm f meaningful pension are those employed by the state. In a cruel irony this is paid for by the people who have no pensions who pay more in tax to pay for the state workers than they do fr their own pension. And no you are right I don't like that
Bill Bradbury
says...
5:15pm Sun 13 Jan 13
We called it "deferred salary". Now teachers are paying in some cases over 11% starting from this year.
As I have told you many times before Brown raided the private pension as they were giving many years of free contributions so he snatched the spare money that was sloshing about in those schemes instead of them using it to provide even better pensions
jumper
says...
6:11pm Sun 13 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
7:42pm Sun 13 Jan 13
jumper
says...
8:47pm Sun 13 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
9:20pm Sun 13 Jan 13
You have certainly allied yourself to this philosophy of destroying workers rights, gains and conditions of service sorry to mention again-the Race to the Bottom,-- when reached you can sleep peacefully whilst your love of the rich tax avoiders and benefit cheats with their safe schemes of avoidance.
Ask you one question After the 3 years of this Government cuts have you noticed any improvement? Even Cameron is saying not this Government period and not even the next 5 years. By that time they may start rationing especially when the energy runs out through lack of investment. What will we be then paying to keep warm?
Put you a bet on. Within 9 months of the next election watch things suddenly improve aqd watch the Lie/dems run for cover.
jumper
says...
9:55am Mon 14 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
11:48am Mon 14 Jan 13
Plan A is not working and Labour's plan B of kick starting the economy falls into the trap that the total population has been told there is no money, it's a World/Euro crisis and we all must work harder for less, a god-send to the bosses who put this into operation with a vengeance. So Unions, public sector workers pensioners have become the enemy who are getting undeserved cash at sankey's and other's expense. In fact the size of my meagre pension is a grateful appreciation for his contribution via his taxes as though I am not a tax payer too. Plan B has worked in China having first attempted their Plan A.
We are being conned by politicians comfortable in their Commons and Committees far removed from the people and who emerge at election time with more bogus promises. No wonder the turn-out at elections is so poor.
Back to the subject --the baths closure is due to Government Cuts and not Marie Rimmer's wish to upset the Tories on this site. Will Libraries be next?
keepitreel
says...
12:46pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
1:02pm Mon 14 Jan 13
jumper
says...
1:13pm Mon 14 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
2:39pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
2:42pm Mon 14 Jan 13
jumper wrote:Yet another good idea but it won't happen. Information is power and those that control it are reluctant to share,-- that is after 40 years dealing with Headteachers and tame Chairs of Governors about to get worse under Gove who is asking heads to appoint their own Governors. i.e. those that will do as they are told.
The reason as always that the threads on this paper get hijacked for other gripes surely tell us that we need some way of being kept better informed and more regularly about what is being done on behalf of the people of St Helens and why.Not a puny scribe on the St Helens website.
Bill Bradbury
says...
3:00pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Enough and all has been said on the baths. It's a disgrace but the ire should be directed at the Tory-boys who are using austerity as a political cover for further privatisation and the free market.
Export Sankey. Most of our businesses are owned by foreign competition and where the money ends up. Flogging our silver and firms was yet another Tory ruse of the 80's.
pitbullboxing
says...
3:33pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
5:13pm Mon 14 Jan 13
jumper
says...
5:35pm Mon 14 Jan 13
chasmcn
says...
7:16pm Mon 14 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:take a look at this foxy
..and Gordon sold all the gold...just before the price boomed!
http://blogs.telegra
ph.co.uk/finance/tho
maspascoe/100018367/
revealed-why-gordon-
brown-sold-britains-
gold-at-a-knock-down
-price/
according to the torygraph is was done to bail out the banks only for them to do it again years later
pitbullboxing
says...
7:54pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Banks are awful though. I would like to see them nationalised. If a man could do that I would vote for him.
jumper
says...
9:11pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
9:52pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
10:11pm Mon 14 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:And not one of his better ideas As people know I was no supporter of Brown
..and Gordon sold all the gold...just before the price boomed!
pitbullboxing
says...
10:19pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
10:20pm Mon 14 Jan 13
Sankey wrote:I will answer this tomorrow if I have some time. I found out tonight at our Parish Council Meeting which I chair that some Councils are making up the loss for the benefit Council tax changes but St.Helens withso many around it cannot affors in our case £6000 chicken feed in Council terms.
Our industry was destroyed after the Second World War many reasons but the unions played a very big part. As for the Tories policy at least they have some semblance of an economic policy what would your shower do bill borrow borrow and more borrow and be lead by the unions who provide 80 percentage of labour funds now.
I will give you your economic lesson tomorrow which you will deny. The figures I use are from Govt. sources not from the Labour propoganda machine. As near to the truth you will get.
As the unions give to Labour so does big business give to Labour as does their rich bankers and Millionaires. So what is your problem?
jumper
says...
11:10am Tue 15 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
11:33am Tue 15 Jan 13
Currently it is at £1.1trillion which is a large number, but from where did it come? Sankey's thesis is that it comes from years as a Nation of living beyond our means, but when this figure is examined closely an interesting picture emerges. It's true when Labour came into power in 1997 the inherited debt was 40% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) but by 2007 the debt was 36.4% GDP.
The thanks to the recklessness of some national banks in particular the Royal Bank of Scotland a devastating financial collapse was averted by swift Labour action that required £1.3 trillion to restore liquidity. Therefore the current £1.1trillion represents a doubling of what was the pre banking crisis of 6 years ago.
At the last General Election 2010 the debt was reducing and the bulk of the consequent increase since then is a whopping 80% [projected by Governmnet into 2014 due to the economic policies of this tory/LieDem Government, not Brown or Labour.
It is interesting to note that Government Bonds or Gilts are isuued by the Treasury with the current largest holder being the Bank of England. Sankey's error is to confuse a national economy for a household economy shown by the term "living beyond our means" and that greatly beloved chestnut "the public purse". They are not the same thing and wiser economic commentators than I condemn this approach as a deliberate attempt to confuse people. His beloved austerity changes when the figures are put into a proper context, with it being a major cause of our Stagnation.
As I wrote earlier the Government's finances are actually stronger than we are led to believe with austerity being a cover for privatisation and free market experimentation. It is also used to force down wages and pretending that there are 1m private sector jobs have been made when in essence they are public jobs privatised, no new jobs except those of minimum wages, and temporary and part-time work.
jumper
says...
12:12pm Tue 15 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
2:37pm Tue 15 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
2:59pm Tue 15 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
3:16pm Tue 15 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
3:17pm Tue 15 Jan 13
janet c
says...
4:44pm Tue 15 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
7:54pm Tue 15 Jan 13
As for Unison I have never read any of their publications so you have an advantage on me if you reckon what I wrote was taken out of their publicity.
My figures were Government sources not from any left wing publication. I repeat using austerity to keep down wages but watch for an improvement near to the election showing things are not as they make out.
I have now bigger fish to fry over Gove's"flexible" pay policy with HT deciding who gets what. I wonde what the role of their Governing Bodies will be and be strong enough to stand up to them-my arse!!
Sankey
says...
8:49pm Tue 15 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
8:49pm Tue 15 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
9:07pm Tue 15 Jan 13
chasmcn
says...
11:23pm Tue 15 Jan 13
But according to Financial Times
"On this one occasion, Mr Brown’s decision was the right one. Let speculators go gambling on a shiny metal, if they want to. For most governments in rich countries, holding gold remains a largely pointless activity."
Alan Bettie FT International Editor .
Sankey
says...
11:43pm Tue 15 Jan 13
Brown knew exactly what trouble the banks were in 6 years before they crashed and nearly took the whoe financial system down in 2008'. But to listen to labour MP!s and their apologists you would think it was an out of the blue that could not have been foreseen. It also demonstrates how meshed up labour was with the city and the knighting of Freddie Goodwin and browns sycophantic mansion house speech weeks before the crash.
Sankey
says...
11:43pm Tue 15 Jan 13
Brown knew exactly what trouble the banks were in 6 years before they crashed and nearly took the whoe financial system down in 2008'. But to listen to labour MP!s and their apologists you would think it was an out of the blue that could not have been foreseen. It also demonstrates how meshed up labour was with the city and the knighting of Freddie Goodwin and browns sycophantic mansion house speech weeks before the crash.
Bill Bradbury
says...
7:35am Wed 16 Jan 13
As a Governor of 4 schools and experince of over 48 years you don't know what you are talking about.
The only thing yo have right is that it is all about smashing the teacher unions.
chasmcn
says...
8:13am Wed 16 Jan 13
Neoliberalism as resulted in the shift from the manufacturing sector to the service sector in the UK the rise in unemployment ,zero contracts ,temporary and part-time work.
Neoliberalism as resulted in the growth of the financial speculative market with deregulation of banking rules eg casino banking
Neoliberalism as resulted in the privatisation of public wealth into private wealth held by a minority of the population
Neoliberalism deregulation of govt rules which affects the public as protection and peoples rights are removed in the pursuit of profit for a minority
Neoliberalism does believe in social spending eg public swimming pools
Neoliberalism as now started to consume our NHS and Education in pursuit of profit for the minority at the expense of the majority
http://academic.broo
klyn.cuny.edu/educat
ion/progler/writings
/published/neolibera
lism.html
Bill Bradbury
says...
9:05am Wed 16 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
9:46am Wed 16 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
9:49am Wed 16 Jan 13
jumper
says...
11:10am Wed 16 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
11:23am Wed 16 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
11:29am Wed 16 Jan 13
But if it is easier to blame Maggie go ahead.
Sankey
says...
11:34am Wed 16 Jan 13
mikeperry109
says...
12:44pm Wed 16 Jan 13
pitbullboxing wrote:That could have been done when they were collapsing in 2007, pit. Instead, taxpayer's money was poured into them by the Labour government.
Interesting reading Stephen J. I still think that the council could re-route some funds to keep Sutton open , and that some areas are treated more fairly than others.
Banks are awful though. I would like to see them nationalised. If a man could do that I would vote for him.
Sankey
says...
1:45pm Wed 16 Jan 13
Bill Bradbury
says...
2:10pm Wed 16 Jan 13
Sankey wrote:This proves you know nothing about teacher pay scales. Teachers in London and the area do get an extra allowance ever since I began teaching in the 60's called "the London Allowance"
Bill how you can justify national pay scales for teachers I don't know how can it be right a teacher in parr gets the same pay as one in London? It's not only cheating the payer but also those teachers who work in the more expensive parts of the country.
As to your Tory jibe about improving standards, so much so Gove has abandonned the pay increase/scale for Excellent teachers And advanced skilled teachers.
Keep to your Tory propoganda on economics and that you obviously read Unison literature, if not how did you know what it contains.
And for your further information teaching Yr 9 & 10 bottom sets is just as hard in St.Helens as in the deep South and a lot harder than in Independent schools where mater and pater pay the fees. Any trouble from their little lords they are told to take them elsewhere probably to mainstream where my members have to deal with them. Nice small classes with well motivated pupils.
jumper
says...
2:24pm Wed 16 Jan 13
Sankey
says...
3:23pm Wed 16 Jan 13
pitbullboxing
says...
4:48pm Wed 16 Jan 13
jumper
says...
7:33pm Wed 16 Jan 13
keepitreel says...
6:54pm Wed 9 Jan 13